Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

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Originally Posted by hallena

I'm curious as to what this even fix, we dont use thunder because we dont have the time after the first refresh

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oh hey blm's, you can't fit thundercloud in due to enochian timers, so guess what, we'll buff thundercloud and thunder's potency but you still can't use it. Please enjoy it.

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Hmm, BLMs aren't casting Thunder anymore because they don't have time to fit it in enochian... Better buff it's potency!

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Squeenix pls, how does that fixes anything lol
Reminder:
A Fire IV 280 * 1.8 = 504 potency
Is still higher than a T3 proc plus it's dot (390+320) = 710

Oh. Maybe we're meant to swap a F4 cast for a T3 proc and not feel bad about it?

EDIT: Blargh, it's late and I'm confused, my logic must be flawed somewhere, a T3 proc plus it's proc back then would have been (340+280) = 620

Man...I was really hoping they would've extended the astral/umbral stacks, like 2 or 3 seconds longer.

hmmm thinking hard about switching to SMN as my main class...

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

I am betting that's what they were going for sadly(I don't agree with it). Guess we will have to see after maint is over.

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Well thats dumb because in the live letter yoshi said he want thunder to interact with enochian

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Originally Posted by hallena

Well thats dumb because in the live letter yoshi said he want thunder to interact with enochian

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My guess is he wanted Thundercloud to be a viable alternative to Fire IV in case you need to move and swiftcast is down.

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

My guess is he wanted Thundercloud to be a viable alternative to Fire IV in case you need to move and swiftcast is down.

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Well then that make it an unreliable band aid fix. 10% is still low and more often than not you wont have a thundercloud waiting for when you have to move

Not sure what to think of this, but as you said, we'll see when the server goes live

I think it's a good change. Thunderclouds have and always granted us mobility (mobility check.) the potency was increased so its more on par with fire 4 if the ACTIVE dot is about to wear off (potency issues vs fire 4 check.) And DOUBLE the proc chance? I'll take it. Also enochian change will make floor 3 less of a headache because on that floor I actually do get ahead of the enochian cast curve occasionally.

With tclouds procing at double the rate + it's potency being more in line with fire 4 our mobility just went through the roof, you may have to exit fire earlier now but i dont think it's that bad.

Well, the math says, Thundercloud is now worth 780 potency that scales higher with SS higher than F4, so it's certainly stronger than F4 now. The only thing about it is the opportunity cost, IE it won't necessarily be worth dropping a F4 for a Thundercloud because you will often want to use Thunder as filler for MP ticks (if, say, you can only do Thundercloud or F4 as your last move in a rotation, F4 will take precedence because you've got half the Thundercloud damage coming more than 50% of the time anyway). I'm looking at this change as a raw DPS upgrade for now without trying it, our odds of using a very strong Thundercloud as our filler in UI (and yes, we always have this capability, even if it's after B4) just shot way up. Using it in place of F4 in AF, I don't believe that is the intent unfortunately, the stipulations on using it are still going to be high in a F4 F4 F1 F4 F4 rotation except specific rotations and timings but we'll see.

I'm not a fan of this, it feels even more ghetto than 2.3's buffs because we really didn't need DPS boosts instead of mobility QoL this time around, but it's something. The prospect of filler being very strong is appealing to me though.

The total potency of a TC T3 is 745.5 [(320+70+320)*1.05] , beats AF3 F4's 529.2 potency
Swap out a F4 in in favour of TC will be a dps gain when the thunder DOT has little to no clipping

Still wish they would make thunder extends enochain by ~3sec instead but I can live without that

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Originally Posted by AishaNymph

The total potency of a TC T3 is 745.5 [(320+70+320)*1.05] , beats AF3 F4's 529.2 potency
Swap out a F4 in in favour of TC will be a dps gain when the thunder DOT has little to no clipping

Still wish they would make thunder extends enochain by ~3sec instead but I can live without that

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Actually all my past testing showed that when they say Thundercloud adds all of its duration's full damage to the initial damage, they really mean adding the 390 to the initial 70. So it's, (390 + 70) + 320 DoT portion, before considering Enochian.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Actually all my past testing showed that when they say Thundercloud adds all of its duration's full damage to the initial damage, they really mean adding the 390 to the initial 70. So it's, (390 + 70) + 320 DoT portion, before considering Enochian.

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If thats the case, even better than I thought.
Still I would like some QOL change to help us maintain enochian instead of a potency buff

First of all, TC has always been stronger than f4, it's just a low chance of getting it so it wasnt worth spending a GCD unless it was a slow tick. But if you got it you shouldve used it and used some brain power to not be retarded and skip a f4 if you have to.

Now its a 1-0.90^6=0.468559 (aka about 47%) every thunder1 that you get a proc that has the potency of 710-(40*x), x being the amount of ticks you have left on your thunder. Not to mention every time you TC the proc rate goes up to 1-0.90^8=0.56953279, aka about 57% for at least another proc during the whole new thunder duration.

Just stop being retarded and skip a f4 and go into UI earlier to refresh enochian, it was worth it before, it sure damn is worth it now. It went from like 26% to get a TC from t1 to fucking 47%, that's one hell of a buff. Not to mention getting off a TC means you potentially don't have to refresh it during UI at all.

No kappas

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Originally Posted by SaucepanKaoz

n.Just stop being retarded and skip a f4 and go into UI earlier to refresh enochian, it was worth it before, it sure damn is worth it now.

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lol.

Anyways,

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYIZ

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Well, the math says, Thundercloud is now worth 780 potency that scales higher with SS higher than F4, so it's certainly stronger than F4 now. The only thing about it is the opportunity cost, IE it won't necessarily be worth dropping a F4 for a Thundercloud because you will often want to use Thunder as filler for MP ticks (if, say, you can only do Thundercloud or F4 as your last move in a rotation, F4 will take precedence because you've got half the Thundercloud damage coming more than 50% of the time anyway). I'm looking at this change as a raw DPS upgrade for now without trying it, our odds of using a very strong Thundercloud as our filler in UI (and yes, we always have this capability, even if it's after B4) just shot way up. Using it in place of F4 in AF, I don't believe that is the intent unfortunately, the stipulations on using it are still going to be high in a F4 F4 F1 F4 F4 rotation except specific rotations and timings but we'll see.

I'm not a fan of this, it feels even more ghetto than 2.3's buffs because we really didn't need DPS boosts instead of mobility QoL this time around, but it's something. The prospect of filler being very strong is appealing to me though.

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Good point about spellspeed affecting thundercloud, if it even affects the thundercloud damage. That said, spellspeed reduces the cast time of F4 more than what it does a 2.5 second cast time spell.

Its only stronger when:

1) You aren't clipping a DoT by a large amount
2) You aren't going to clip your new DoT by a large amount

Even then, you can only use it in certain windows of your rotation, and you will likely have to cut your rotation short due to enochian.

Something else worth noting in this change, multi dotting is still a thing and the proc rate will have a significant impact on encounters with say like 3 targets and so on. Dotting multiple enemies in the past yeilded for good tcloud rates, i wonder how that'll fair now.

(3 mob encounter dot one on ice, get proc skip f4 dot new mob, re proc refresh fire with fire 2, dot the third with another tcloud etc. bank a 4th cloud if it happens.)

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Something else worth noting in this change, multi dotting is still a thing and the proc rate will have a significant impact on encounters with say like 3 targets and so on. Dotting multiple enemies in the past yeilded for good tcloud rates, i wonder how that'll fair now.

(3 mob encounter dot one on ice, get proc skip f4 dot new mob, re proc dot the third with another tcloud etc.)

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It probably won't be a thing now though. Before, you would do 2 x T1 when you could multi-dot in ice phase. Now, you have to cast Blizzard 4, which is a 3 second cast. So you ended up (pre 3.05) using a T1 only if you needed a filler.

see my edit on that one, i gave an example, on fresh targets clouds are worth more than F4 now.. think about it.

Grand Master of Magic here. The Grand Master is confused as to why people think they can't use their T3 procs and cast 1 less F4 to keep Enochian up properly. The Grandmaster is concerned about the mental well-being of the Novice Magicians here.

I like the changes, makes T1-3 more usefull.

I still fiddled Thunder-Procs in my fights, because it´s not the F4 you lost, its the Scythe you didnt need to while moving.

This buffs come right into my gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Prettylush

Grand Master of Magic here. The Grand Master is confused as to why people think they can't use their T3 procs and cast 1 less F4 to keep Enochian up properly. The Grandmaster is concerned about the mental well-being of the Novice Magicians here.

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The Grand Master needs to go back to school or stick to healing.

Sounds decent, but would have liked more QoL changes than a bit more DPS.

hey choco, I think it might be possible that SS is our best stat now. consider the det ss over the crit, we should ALWAYS have the thunder going now imo. even if we clip the dot on the cloud now, we can do so and get more potency than the fire 4. + ss damage on the ticks.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

hey choco, I think it might be possible that SS is our best stat now. consider the det ss over the crit, we should ALWAYS have the thunder going now imo. even if we clip the dot on the cloud now, we can do so and get more potency than the fire 4. + ss damage on the ticks.

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYN9

Still don't know what Alex Savage's accuracy will be, but this is a rough estimate on how much SSPD we can stack.

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Originally Posted by SaucepanKaoz

First of all, TC has always been stronger than f4, it's just a low chance of getting it so it wasnt worth spending a GCD unless it was a slow tick. But if you got it you shouldve used it and used some brain power to not be retarded and skip a f4 if you have to.

Now its a 1-0.90^6=0.468559 (aka about 47%) every thunder1 that you get a proc that has the potency of 710-(40*x), x being the amount of ticks you have left on your thunder. Not to mention every time you TC the proc rate goes up to 1-0.90^8=0.56953279, aka about 57% for at least another proc during the whole new thunder duration.

Just stop being retarded and skip a f4 and go into UI earlier to refresh enochian, it was worth it before, it sure damn is worth it now. It went from like 26% to get a TC from t1 to fucking 47%, that's one hell of a buff. Not to mention getting off a TC means you potentially don't have to refresh it during UI at all.

No kappas

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Or you can do F4 > B3 > B4/T3 > opposite as the rest of us "retarded" people do. Hell of a lot better than skipped F4 for T3 > B3 > B4 > oh shit I'm forced to use filler, I just traded a F4 for B1!

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYN9

Still don't know what Alex Savage's accuracy will be, but this is a rough estimate on how much SSPD we can stack.

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Totally not BiS, but:

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QYNQ

*Unzips*

Seems like the next step should be allowing Fire 4 to proc firestarter.

Since F3 is less damage than our primary dps spell now, that would turn it into a utility proc, rather than the flat dps boost it used to be. With a fresh enochian we could potentially eke out an extra F4 but that wouldn't make us OP, and the increased mobility of being able to move and keep AF up would make enochian less frustrating over all.

Proving once again the only way to fix something is to increase potencies and worsening the problem with Thundercloud by doubling the procs. It's definitely a boost for stuff like A1 and at a base of 780 Potency. Thundercloud is the best single target spell in the game. With that potency so high, you can recast a proc under 18 seconds to have a better Potency than F4. Under 21 second is barely a lost.

That's not QoL, that's stupidity and display you don't know how to balance your stuff.

Regardless what we think. Spell Speed gets a pretty good boost. Not to mention faster cast means higher chance to use a filler Thunder. It also means a better window to use your procs.

Been doing some Alex NM farm before we can raid later ... BLM feels exactly the same. The Enochian buff is so far as situational as it sounds (you really don't want to turn rotation 3 into rotation by default, Sharpcast isn't up usually even if you would), and the Thundercloud buff, you really can't use them without sacrificing F4 for, because the later your rotation is before B4, even if you technically have time, that makes dodging that much hairier and limits your options greatly.

Just my impression after a few dummy trials and some A1-4s. It is a DPS increase just on the fact that you can use Thundercloud as filler more often, and Thunder does a little more, but it's not a big increase, and I kind of wonder why they did it in the first place when the complaints were about Enochian timers.

It feels Spell Speed will get a stronger impact. That said, they definitely missed the train on making Thundercloud part of the rotation. First dummy try when I logged I did 1220 single target Dummy 4 minutes parse with an X-Potion. The buff is noticeable and I guess you lose less DPS from moving if you get more procs.

Fact is Thundercloud is superior to Fire IV. You need to clip a Thunder dot higher than 18 seconds to actually lose DPS versus Fire IV. So you might lose some Fire IVs but it's still a gain and a proc = mobility. There is also a situation you can Enochian in the middle of your astral fire so you don't lose any Fire IV. At best, you get a Thundercloud and replace that Fire IV by a Fire I which is still a DPS gain.

You think the devs actually play this game and test things?

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Originally Posted by Dajinn

You think the devs actually play this game and test things?

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Yes. They are not players so they can't understand what it means to feel an ability causes as much issues than gains. But it works out in the end.

They failed to understand we didn't want the DPS buff from Thundercloud. We wanted it to be actually part of the rotation. It feels like an intruder but it's 780 Potency. You'll still sac your base rotation to use it.

So when sharpcast is up in between convert rotations now, would the ideal rotation be:

sharp+t1>f3>f4>tc>f1>f4>f4>f4>b3>b4?

That doesn't sacrifice any of the core rotation, but adds a procced t3. Or would the wasted potency from the first thunder be too problematic?

Soooo.. I haven't play tested this yet. But doesn't the automatic 30sec Enochian refresh greatly increase our mobility (at least in the second and third go thru's of our rotation)? I understand the AF timer still enforces a bit of a chokehold, but this buff can only be a good thing I would think.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

automatic 30sec Enochian refresh

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You have misread the change, the 30sec Enochian refresh only applies if you have Enochian buff running and use the Enochian ability.

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Originally Posted by myonko

You have misread the change, the 30sec Enochian refresh only applies if you have Enochian buff running and use the Enochian ability.

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This does mean, however, that we can "borrow" some of the leniency of the first rotation for our third rotation now. The 2nd rotation is still the problem child.

I do believe there is no reason to use Sharpcasft Fire 1 in between rotations DPS wise. You gain more betting on the 40% and having a free Thundercloud proc worth 780 Potency after that Fire 1. This mean it should do about 660 Potency if you clip 3 ticks. 700 Potency if you clip 2 ticks. It's much better than Fire 3 proc. Actually, F3 proc is 432 Potency and T3 Thundercloud is 460 Potency + 320 from ticks lol.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

It's definitely a boost for stuff like A1 and at a base of 780 Potency.

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Isn't it 710? 40*8*2+70=710. And depending on when you use TC, wouldn't it also result in you exchanging one F4 for F1, a loss of 190 potency.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Isn't it 710? 40*8*2+70=710

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It's not straight up multiplied like that. The initial hit potency is 390 since it includes the normal initial hit potency, it's just worded strangely. So it's ((40*8)+70))*2 you add the 70 before multiplying by 2 not after

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I do believe there is no reason to use Sharpcasft Fire 1 in between rotations DPS wise. You gain more betting on the 40% and having a free Thundercloud proc worth 780 Potency after that Fire 1. This mean it should do about 660 Potency if you clip 3 ticks. 700 Potency if you clip 2 ticks. It's much better than Fire 3 proc. Actually, F3 proc is 432 Potency and T3 Thundercloud is 460 Potency + 320 from ticks lol.

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I'm not saying your numbers are wrong but they may be misguided. Don't forget to take opportunity costs into account. Every potency you take from the previous Thunder, every F4 you turn into a B1 or another T1, will make it a lot less simple than just 780 vs F4 vs F3 (IE even though technically using a Thundercloud at 18s left of Thunder is a DPS gain in pure potency, it's not actually a tangible DPS gain because you traded a different move + last Thunder's duration + a potentially weaker future Thunder since you'd be clipping then too for that Thundercloud). In some cases Thundercloud will straight up be virtually the same DPS as without if you clip too hard and you lose a F4, and clip near the end and you might be losing 300+ potency by trading in a B1 for an F4.

Not saying Thundercloud doesn't have a place, or your idea about Sharpcast T1 definitely isn't real (I see a lot of opportunity cost there though), just I think you should look deeper than what a DoT will do for you right then and there; after all, if on SMN you do Bio > Bio, technically the second one is almost full potency but you just made that first Bio absolute garbage. Without going into the math heavy I think it will mostly be a situational dummy increase depending on where it is in our rotation. I also think the best thing to know for now is if you have to dodge and you have Thundercloud it is absolutely worth it to skip a F4 later on in that instance, because that's a real, tangible scenario where you wouldn't have done anything without Thundercloud.