How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

If anyone is interested and wants to have a chat before HW and get some Dragoon stuff done, www.twitch.tv/dervy_hc

so for a full opener, things are gonna get difficult, because we basically have to deal with 3 new oGCDs while somehow fitting in stuff like x-pots still. assuming you have around 2.40 sksp something like this could work

[BOTD)>HT[BFB+BL)>ID[x-pot)>Dis[PS+IR)>CT(Jump)>F&C(SSDl)>P(LSW+Geirskogu)>TT(DFD)>VT(LS)>FT]]>WT]

although this opener forsakes the idea of double geirskogul during bfb, it's the cleanest i can come up with that still fits an xpot in the rotation. IR's last GCD will be a LS'd FT too, but no idea where else to put it. BFB+BL are both 20s, so having both together seems like a better idea compared to BFB+IR then BL+IR. other issue is animation time on botd/geirskogul/battle litany

"X-pot", you all say. Well lookit this! Well, once Lodestone stops getting hammered.

NQ: Strength +16% (Max 84)
HQ: Strength +20% (Max 105)

goon pots ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

So that's like +100 when HQ I assume? Woah. And yeah Aiurily, that's the opener I'm thinking of using.

Gonna grab that new DRG quest once early access starts!

Since spamming login doesn't seem to overcome technical issues probably caused by people spamming login...

I took at look at physical DPS food candidates (they might add two-star recipes later?)

Grilled Sweetfish HQ - Acc +5% (36), Crit +2% (14)
Royal Eggs HQ - Speed +5% (33), Det +2% (10)
Cockatrice Meatballs HQ - Speed +5% (35), Crit +2% (15)
Baked Pipira Pira HQ - Crit +5% (37), Acc +3% (18)
Deep-Fried Okeanis HQ - Speed +5% (38), Det +2% (12)
Morel Salad HQ - Det +5% (30), Speed +2% (15)
Urchin Loaf HQ - Acc +6% (40), Det +3% (13)

WD: 72
STR: 885
DET: 365
CRT: 580
SS: 597.0

Those are our stats when at i180 +i190 weapon.... There's only one set of i180... With a GCD of 2.256, as long as base GCD is still at 2.5 when at 60. RIP

If it's anything like lower levels, a point of secondary stat has less effect the higher your level is.

battle litany animation is short, can double weave easily

botd as well

http://a.loveisover.me/ykjveo.png

2.31 gcd...that's a mighty amount of skill speed I would think, no?

Whoever reaches 56 first will need to answer the big question: Can Blood of the Dragon be extended infinitely by our 4th-hit combos, or is there a hard cap on BotD duration?

it caps at 30 seconds

It can only have a maximum of 30 seconds' duration at any one moment, yes. What I'm wondering is whether its duration can be increased over and over again in order to extend infinitely across the course of an encounter. I'm guessing that it can, but some people read the tooltip as indicating that it's a hard cap of 30 cumulative seconds per BotD.

it can be increased infinitely yes

and you can combo f&c after full thrust & chaos thrust

That detail about Fang and Claw is interesting. I guess we will get to decide between Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust based on our positioning, rather than being forced to chain them with specific combos?

Also, the infinite extension factor pretty much confirms that BotD/Geirskogul management is the core property of level 60 DRG. Thanks, Aiurily!

I don't know about you guys, but popping all of these new buffs for every pull is getting kind of exhausting for me. IR, BFB, BL, BotD, followed by Power Surge and Life Surge, eventually with potions for progression... RIP my wrists.

Oh dear..it already felt like a complicated dance on controller. Our hands will be going up in smoke every time we burst!

Down with controllers.

(It sucks on keyboard too)

ahaha oh wow, this is actually really fucking annoying

it's not that FT and CT can chain into either BoTD combo like i mistakenly said earlier, it's that there is a 50/50 chance of proccing either F&C or WT. so if you do TT>VT>FT, you will either proc F&C for a 290 potency flank, or a WT for a 290 potency rear, at a 50% chance each. so for example, if you do something very typical like rear chaos thrust>(jump) and you proc F&C, there's no way you're gonna get the F&C flank proc without losing a bit of your GCD. that's going to take some getting used to

anyway geirskogul animation is pretty fast at least

Wow. It's looking more and more like the Skillcap of Dragoon is insanely high... I hope that comes with being top DPS if you play correctly.

if you EVER jump after a FT/CT and your rng 50/50 4th hit combo proc doesn't line up with your position, enjoy clipped GCD or -190 potency penalty lol

even at precise flank/rear edging (gl maintaining that for 100% of the fight), this is incredibly dumb on a lot of levels. if wheeling thrust/fang & claw was the level 60 DRG job skill, no one would actually do that job quest because it screams "hey, doing this quest makes your dps life a lot harder and lower on average"

Well it seems the solution is to not jump during those skills.

I tend to jump earlier in combat anyways and the animation in jump is touch shorter. I don't think this is going to be as much of an issue.

However, in that particular case I'd rather clip the cooldown on Jump, then clip the combo and risk losing BtoD prematurely.

Rotationally this shouldn't affect us too heavily as we're best positioned on the "Corner" and adjustments for context should be fairly quick - baring specific fight mechanics. Given the line-AoE nature of Geirskogul, that will actually give us some range on its use as well.

Anyways, jumping into the conversation of simplifying the guidelines into an easy to understand priority system - just off the math theory we have thanks to Thendiel - it looks like the "Green Light" for using Geirskogul is if your BotD timer has 19 or more seconds left on its duration, or if your BtoD timer is back up/nearly up.

Everything else seems fairly straight forward giving a matter of discretion for usage of Life Surge. Seems to be a matter of using it for 4th Tiers or True Thrust, whichever is the closest cooldown when LS returns.

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As far as controller usage - I have a fair amount of redundancy on my controls anyways (I hybrid my defensive cooldowns). I'm fairly certain I can arrange some of the "4th" attacks to still feel comfortable in my setup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Anyways, jumping into the conversation of simplifying the guidelines into an easy to understand priority system - just off the math theory we have thanks to Thendiel - it looks like the "Green Light" for using Geirskogul is if your BotD timer has 19 or more seconds left on its duration, or if your BtoD timer is back up/nearly up.

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The general consensus is to use Geirskogul after every 4th-tier combo, like what I posted many pages back. The thing is, all of Thendiels math is kinda broken, as at i180 + i190 weapon, we have 597 Skillspeed, or a GCD of 2.256. At that level of Skillspeed, there's quite of interesting things happening, such as god-tier DoT clipping, BotD falling off at odd times, but your average GK per/min is much higher.

I think its 597 at least.... It's over 540 Total SS, that's what I remember.

The safety time at that level of Skillspeed to use Geirskogul without letting BotD fall off is around 17s.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3039253

That's what the Rotation will be like with a GCD of 2.40

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Everything else seems fairly straight forward giving a matter of discretion for usage of Life Surge. Seems to be a matter of using it for 4th Tiers or True Thrust, whichever is the closest cooldown when LS returns.

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Very hard to say so. Again, I've also done some testing. If you use LS on the first FT, the 2nd is on a 4th tier, the 3rd is on an HT, 4th is on like impulse drive, lmao.

Everything will need a lot of testing, and our rotation is going to change constantly whenever we reach a new SS threshold.

Thinking I might write a couple of small scripts to help simulate some stuff. With that much skill speed difference from 50-60 we might need to create a spreadsheet to show best rotations for various breakpoints.

Honestly at this point I might even make a visual "timelime" web app where you can drag skills etc along a timeline with buff duration tracking. Wouldn't be super technical but would make looking at it a bit easier I think (at least for visual people like me)

Would anyone be interested in a tool like that?

I already have the spreadsheet - I've had it since patch 2.1 and it's already been fully updated with the new 3.0 information, with dynamic GK/WT/FC and BotD timers already. The only information I need now is how SS affects DoTs, Critical Hit Rating, observe the new Determination changes and according to Viridiana, there's more stat-value changes that aren't in the Patch notes.

Give me 2 weeks or so and I'll have vague stat-weights up and in August, they should be a lot more accurate with more data samples and concise models. Pandabearcat also has his SimFF Simulator that is nearly ready. All we need to do is learn the language of it and we'll be using that. Don't worry about it :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dervy

The general consensus is to use Geirskogul after every 4th-tier combo, like what I posted many pages back. The thing is, all of Thendiels math is kinda broken, as at i180 + i190 weapon, we have 597 Skillspeed, or a GCD of 2.256. At that level of Skillspeed, there's quite of interesting things happening, such as god-tier DoT clipping, BotD falling off at odd times, but your average GK per/min is much higher.

I think its 597 at least.... It's over 540 Total SS, that's what I remember.

The safety time at that level of Skillspeed to use Geirskogul without letting BotD fall off is around 17s.

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Why 17 seconds? Don't you need 10 seconds for the Geirskogul itself, plus the duration of 5 GCDs that we should experience between 4th combo hits? I must be missing something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

ahaha oh wow, this is actually really fucking annoying

it's not that FT and CT can chain into either BoTD combo like i mistakenly said earlier, it's that there is a 50/50 chance of proccing either F&C or WT. so if you do TT>VT>FT, you will either proc F&C for a 290 potency flank, or a WT for a 290 potency rear, at a 50% chance each. so for example, if you do something very typical like rear chaos thrust>(jump) and you proc F&C, there's no way you're gonna get the F&C flank proc without losing a bit of your GCD. that's going to take some getting used to

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I... wow. I did not see that coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Why 17 seconds? Don't you need 10 seconds for the Geirskogul itself, plus the duration of 5 GCDs that we should experience between 4th combo hits? I must be missing something.

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Sorry, I confused myself with something else I'm looking at with very high SS as I'm worried about the interaction it will have with our Rotation and BotD timers, etc.

Though, at 2.256 GCD, which is what I'm playing around with, I have this to test out:

54.15s = FC (21.51 BotD left) - GK - PH - TTT - WT [15.23 BotD left, BotD CD up] - GK [5.23 BotD left] - HT - ID [BotD Falls off] - DI - BotD - CT - WT - GK

You have 1 GCD where you don't have a BotD, but you're pumping 4 GKs per BotD at this Skillspeed.

EDIT: You can weave oCDs, including Jump and Spineshatter Dive in between CT/FT and FC.

so which one is the best rotation that i can have?

for anyone curious, at 2.40 gcd, HT and phleb uptime is pretty good (refresh at 1s)

Shouldn't FT/CT under BotD proc both? Is it really 50\50? That makes it tremendously annoying and, frankly, sounds like a glitch.

FC/WT regens BotD timer instantly on action press, not after animation. That's really, really good news.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Shouldn't FT/CT under BotD proc both? Is it really 50\50? That makes it tremendously annoying and, frankly, sounds like a glitch.

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nope. if we look back, yoshi p has always described it as a proc, rather than a combo iirc, so it makes sense in hindsight i guess. the 4th hit combo is guaranteed; the one you get is just random.

I just unlocked the first combo finisher. It feels like hell having to remap and having to rethink the combos for the fourth step, because it usually takes me some time to adapt. I don't even want to think what that 50% proc system is going to feel like, with mobs turning around because of dumb tanks...

If my model is correct, H - P - IDC4 - TTT4 is the same PPS as H - IDC4 - P - TTT4, which kinda makes sense, as the benefit of H-IDC-P was you trading a tick of CT for a tick of Phlebotomize, now you're not doing that. It's straight 1 tick less, for a Disembowel debuff

If enough people complain, they'll change the conditional branch I hope. As it stands, doing regular raid mchanics along woth differential branches for combo finishers with extreme penalties for missing the position will destroy dps. Both combo finishers are 100 potency unless you get the positional :/

It's not really that bad. Git gud and just stick around where the flank and rear of the boss meet. I like this change.

it really isn't bad and you'll get used to it relatively fast, but the design is still retarded imo

This sounds awful. Especially for controller users. I already have no idea where I'm going to put the 4th combo skills on my crossbar that would work with the current setup. And now to find out they are random and postional makes it way worse. So those have to be on the right side because you will have to be ready to move because of the positional requirement. So they can't be on the dpad. And we are putting off gcd skills in between almost every single gcd skill. So there's no time to be swapping crossbars. Dragoon is just nonstop button mashing. That's not even mentioning having to find somewhere to stick gierskogul that is convenient since it seems it will need to be used frequently.


They need to make it so you can have multiple skills on the same button. Like has been mentioned when wheeling thrust or fang and claw proc have them replace ft or ct. Or maybe have WT and F&C the same button but it changes depending on which one procced. Just have them very visually distinct so you can tell which one it is.

I'm sure I'll get used to it and muscle memory will eventually kick in but right now it seems seems a bit much on a controller.