RIP Bard

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

People are going to say "BLMs manage!" but BLM doesn't have to cast a spell just to get into "dps mode", which will then drop every time they move, forcing them to recast it. Realistically a bard will be casting this dozens of times in a raid, and I can't imagine it will increase their damage enough to be worth it.

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Should look at the dev post update to the translation. The song will not drop from movement, it merely turns you into a caster for until you manually drop it. Additionally, you can sing other songs at the same time.

Hm, I can see the utility in the situations like Titan's gaols where you've got a limited window for attacks and you can't really utilize your skills except for spamming HS/Bloodletter/SS procs. Or say, LotA (raid content, yeah) with you having 30 sec of free DPS time. Or Odin.
Can't wait to play with the new mechanics. (Although, I really hope it isn't a lvl60 song 'cuz well... at that point, it'd be harder to adapt) And hell yeah, for DoT buff. How does SkS comes into the play with all that stuff, though, I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Seifa

This is just a clunky mechanic for the sake of being clunky. The prospect of playing a physical BLM isn't appealing at all.......

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I was utterly disappointed on seeing this reveal.

I'm not against them providing a means of buffing BRDs damage output, but to sacrifice it's support potential for it? That's a horrible idea!

Why do we need to lose one of our key strengths? Why does the BRD have to become a makeshift BLM now with having to be a crappy turret? Why can we not get an actual song that signifies the fact that we ARE a support role? Why are we neglecting what makes BRD unique?

Even thematically this song doesn't fit with our current repertoire. Songs that bolster the allies' spirits and rally them together or diminishing our foes' willpower. This is something an Archer would do, focusing their shots, becoming still, like a sniper. But it's a song? WHY?

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

WHY?

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because bards complaining that songs lower their dps.
so they don't play song.

and now, they are "forced" to play songs.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Stuff

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Had a huge reply and realized i just didn't care that much.

Short reply: Don't like the BRD additions? Don't use them....oh wait!?!? It is a month til the expantion hits? How the heck do you know if you'll like it or not?

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Originally Posted by Defteros

because bards complaining that songs lower their dps.
so they don't play song.

and now, they are "forced" to play songs.

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I've been in a wod with two other random bards. One had Zeta, the other Nexus. Both Crit-Det-oriented. I have Animus (that mess of Acc-SkS, honestly), and constantly kept songs up till I went dry on MP, switched the target from Angra Mainyu whenever adds/clocks spawned, and I still topped their damage output on AM. They really should take their time to learn how to play instead of complaining.

why ppl dont like this is beyond me....MOOOOOOAR DPS is what we really needed , and now SMN has to deal with all the mechanics!!!! mwahahaha

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Originally Posted by Viar

I've been in a wod with two other random bards., and I still topped their damage output on AM. They really should take their time to learn how to play instead of complaining.

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they arent complaining they are probably AFK....

WOD DPS :

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2...inessPhoto.jpg


:p :p :p

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Originally Posted by Viar

I've been in a wod with two other random bards. One had Zeta, the other Nexus. Both Crit-Det-oriented. I have Animus (that mess of Acc-SkS, honestly), and constantly kept songs up till I went dry on MP, switched the target from Angra Mainyu whenever adds/clocks spawned, and I still topped their damage output on AM. They really should take their time to learn how to play instead of complaining.

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They probably didn't care. The hardest part of WoD is not falling asleep. I never push dps in there, because frankly I don't care enough. I'm usually on my phone half the time, or checking stuff online in another window.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

I was utterly disappointed on seeing this reveal.

I'm not against them providing a means of buffing BRDs damage output, but to sacrifice it's support potential for it? That's a horrible idea!

Why do we need to lose one of our key strengths? Why does the BRD have to become a makeshift BLM now with having to be a crappy turret? Why can we not get an actual song that signifies the fact that we ARE a support role? Why are we neglecting what makes BRD unique?

Even thematically this song doesn't fit with our current repertoire. Songs that bolster the allies' spirits and rally them together or diminishing our foes' willpower. This is something an Archer would do, focusing their shots, becoming still, like a sniper. But it's a song? WHY?

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This doesn't sacrifice their support one bit. Unless Machinist has incredible support abilities, Bards will still be number 1 for support.

1) Minuet doesn't drain mp
2) You can play songs while in Minuet

Also remember, Minuet is a song and thus might be supported by Battle Voice unless it's exempt like Swiftsong. Ballad, Paeon and Foes are just too good not to drop.

If you came around this forum a year ago almost every single bard was saying the following: I will sacrifice movement for some more DPS. They give you that, and now all the other Bards come QQing out of the cracks.

Yesterday and today have to be the most ridiculous I've ever seen the people who use this forum over-react. We know small details about a couple of abilities per class. We have no idea of actual details such as potencys. There's people in this thread alone that think that SE would genuinely make a mistake of making a DPS Stance for Bard do LESS DPS. Yes you will miss Repelling Shot, yes you will miss some procs, yes you will lose auto attacks, and guess what? The stance will make up for it.

To me it sounds like this stance will make Bard a more skillful class to play. People who know when to turn this on and off will have a world of difference between them and the Bards who just play "old school" and refuse to use it.

P.S. SE doesn't care about Clunk. They made BLM clunk-ier to play with one of the failed fixes to multi-Flare a few months after launch and never reverted the change (despite it not fixing the problem) and you're worried about procs that proc mid-cast? BLMs procs proc 0.7s into your NEXT cast.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

remember that we will get new traits as well , maybe we get one that make bloodletter instant even with wandereer minuet on.....or who knows :o

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Bloodletter has always been instant. It's when the reset occurs mid cast that becomes clunky.

And I hope I'm really not the only one that gets annoyed by the fact that we use a song to go into the channeled stance. Every time I look at the demo it just doesn't mesh well with bard's animations, not even the song itself has a proper audio transition now that I listen to it e.e

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

If you came around this forum a year ago almost every single bard was saying the following: I will sacrifice movement for some more DPS. They give you that, and now all the other Bards come QQing out of the cracks. it.

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That generalization though, those same bards probably aren't even in this thread. Granted I'm one of them, I just don't like how it was presented (through the use of a song and disabling auto attacks,)

"TP please bard."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"
"Ballad please bard..."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Viar

I've been in a wod with two other random bards. One had Zeta, the other Nexus. Both Crit-Det-oriented. I have Animus (that mess of Acc-SkS, honestly), and constantly kept songs up till I went dry on MP, switched the target from Angra Mainyu whenever adds/clocks spawned, and I still topped their damage output on AM. They really should take their time to learn how to play instead of complaining.

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I've been in WoD yesterday, outdpsing everyone the entire time, even with songs up. as ailv110 bard.
and I don't even main it xD

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

"TP please bard."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"
"Ballad please bard..."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"

Please look forward to it.

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It's already happening XD that's why I ask for songs only to my friends, though I often commend wise used songs

One thing is saying that we would sacrifice some mobility for extra dps and another thing is saying we would want to become casters.

We could get the buff without forcing us to cast... and that would be way more natural with our skills like barrage and bloodletter.

Thinking about things a bit made me realize that the Wanderer's Minuet might tie into their plans to make Skill Speed more viable and gear usage more diverse. Currently Crit is the preferred secondary stat of Bards because of the desire for Bloodletter procs. If Skill Speed influences a Bards cast/charge times while in Minuet while at the same time increasing the damage inflicted by DoTs, Skill Speed heavy builds might be viable for Bards.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

This is talking raids of course. Dungeons and such? I'm sure you can post up and nuke away, but honestly who cares? Dungeons are rofl-easy and your dps really doesn't matter.

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Only because everyone has been severely overgearing the high level dungeons since 2.1. Run the dungeons with a group in appropriate gear and you will see that they are far from "rofl-easy."

But isnt Minuet something meant to work like a stance dance?
Like, need to move? Turn Minuet off to keep attacking.
No need to move? Turn Minuet on to push DPS up.

Its not like BRD need to stop attacking at any moment except when casting the songs :/

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

"TP please bard."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"
"Ballad please bard..."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"

Please look forward to it.

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Don't forget the other side:

"Stop singing, you are hurting party deeps!!!"
"WHM has Shroud, drop ballad or i drop you!"
And every other iteration of 'Don't waste time on songs' i've been told.

There's always gonna be some wisenheimer that wants tell you how to play BRD 'right', those of us that consider ourselves at least decent know when we need to do what already. That will carry forward with the new changes after we get a chance to work with them. Those BRDs that ...aren't so decent? Well the changes will, if anything, make them reevaluate their game when keyboard smash will no longer cut it in parties.

This is awesome. One of the main things that made me stray away from endgame BRD is how straightforward it is. There was no resource to manage or anything. This is just the kind of mechanic that makes me interested in playing again.

I almost feel like BRD should have worked that way to begin with. It's sort of like a "Focus" stance. It'd make sense for a ranged to be way more effective when, you know, it doesn't have to run around.

One thing is for certain, many more lol Bards will exist.
Some who have no experience with cast time and such.
And true also 99% of the time i out dps other Bards with Ballad up and they have no songs up at all. There exists bad players in every class really.
Minuet sounds interesting to me

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Originally Posted by Edellis

This is awesome. One of the main things that made me stray away from endgame BRD is how straightforward it is. There was no resource to manage or anything. This is just the kind of mechanic that makes me interested in playing again.

I almost feel like BRD should have worked that way to begin with. It's sort of like a "Focus" stance. It'd make sense for a ranged to be way more effective when, you know, it doesn't have to run around.

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Straight Shot is a damage buff that needs to be kept up, much like Huton, Heavy Thrust, Maim, Greased Lightning...etc.

Bards have 2 dots that need to be kept up, just like the melee DPS classes.

Bards also have to Invigorate like the melee DPS classes.

What resource management does Bard lack?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

"TP please bard."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"
"Ballad please bard..."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"

Please look forward to it.

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Yep, I can see it happening now...

...

Wait a sec. I ALREADY see this happen in WoD runs.

"lolBRDs" indeed.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Yep, I can see it happening now...

...

Wait a sec. I ALREADY see this happen in WoD runs.

"lolBRDs" indeed.

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Gotta do 1000 DPS (but not per second) yo!

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

"TP please bard."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"
"Ballad please bard..."
"STFU MY DPS NUMBERS!!"

Please look forward to it.

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You can use other songs while under the effect of Wanderer's Minuet, Yoshi-P said this directly.
Though that's not gonna stop people from being stupid...
All i can say is BRDs should learn to play BLM or SMN at this point to get a feel for how to deal with Wanderer's Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Spiritreaver1217

How the heck do you know if you'll like it or not?

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Tried to get BLM higher in the past and used to be pretty dedicated with SMN. Casting times drove me nuts; I just don't like it. That's the entire deal with Minuet.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

But isnt Minuet something meant to work like a stance dance?

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I'd be for a stance dance, but typically when it comes to something like switching in and out of said stances the 'cast' into the stance is near seamless with maybe a cooldown before breaking out of it, Like Clerics. This has a short animation, which makes it seem awkward.

I said before I'm fine with there being a new method of DPS, just why did we have to waste a song? Why couldn't we have gotten a new support song and then gotten this stance as an Archer's CA? I love playing BRD for that support aspect and though this 'song' can integrate with the others, seeing nothing new to the table in that area is a bit disappointing.

The question was raised today by a friend (didn't see if it's been asked already): with Minuet up, I know we lose the charge ability/buff while moving and no auto attack, but will we still be able to just attack like normal, or not at all?

If possible, would one of the community reps please clarify this?

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Straight Shot is a damage buff that needs to be kept up, much like Huton, Heavy Thrust, Maim, Greased Lightning...etc.

Bards have 2 dots that need to be kept up, just like the melee DPS classes.

Bards also have to Invigorate like the melee DPS classes.

What resource management does Bard lack?

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Those aren't resources, they're buffs and DOTs. There's no way to "mess up" anything Bard does, worse case scenario, your DPS drops if you use them sub-optimally. It's not like you're going to fail a DPS check because of any of this -- just pop all CDs at once 90% of the time you'll be fine. Bards don't directly benefit from MP or their songs, other classes do. This is fun but it's also not very engaging, since outside of ballad, the BRD isn't sacrificing anything. And even then, it's a completely passive sacrifice, nothing changes from your point of view.

This new stance is the first time Bard actually has to think about an ability before they press the button, and it makes a very noticeable sacrifice.

The majority of BRD's difficulty for me seems to come from the fact the game doesn't explicitly tell you when you gain a bloodletter proc, and i guess that's just to stop them from just being 100% ezmode. BRD really just feels like a parse machine more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

I said before I'm fine with there being a new method of DPS, just why did we have to waste a song? Why couldn't we have gotten a new support song and then gotten this stance as an Archer's CA? I love playing BRD for that support aspect and though this 'song' can integrate with the others, seeing nothing new to the table in that area is a bit disappointing.

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There's not really much left to add as song abilities that wouldn't either completely unbalance BRD or be useless.
If they added a physical version of foe requiem, they'd be singing that all the time since there's ALWAYS physical going out.
If they added an HP song, same story
They've vehemently said no haste song
an accuracy song would straddle the line between useless and overpowered, with useless being more likely since if you need it, you're not geared correctly.
Individual stat boosts would require six new songs.
"bubble song" (DEF or RES) would either be useless or overpowered, and is being covered completely by the healers.

So yeah future songs, such as this one, will play more esoteric roles.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

BRD really just feels like a parse machine more than anything.

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Too bad they parse lower than other jobs, ESPECIALLY if they're doing their job right.

What I'd like to see is a bit of flexibility with this new song.

So, you put it up. What I'd like to see happen is that the song stay up, even if you move... You just lose the charge.

So, You're about to use Heavy Shot and it starts charging, but an AoE comes and you have to move.

You move, but the Heavy Shot goes off without the extra damage.

That'd be nice and flexible for me.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

There's not really much left to add as song abilities that wouldn't either completely unbalance BRD or be useless.
If they added a physical version of foe requiem, they'd be singing that all the time since there's ALWAYS physical going out.
If they added an HP song, same story
They've vehemently said no haste song
an accuracy song would straddle the line between useless and overpowered, with useless being more likely since if you need it, you're not geared correctly.
Individual stat boosts would require six new songs.
"bubble song" (DEF or RES) would either be useless or overpowered, and is being covered completely by the healers.

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Yeah, this is another thing that steered me away. Bard's support capacity is eextreemellyyy situational. The vast majority of them aren't even useful unless your party is underperforming. Endgame, it's almost always just ballad. If not ballad, Foe for free. They have 3 AoEs, only one of which (quick nock) is ever practical, Rain of Death's debuff is very useful...again, only if your party is under-performing. Same with Paeon. Same with their limit break. Wide Volley is useless. The entire AoE proc chain is useless.

They are definitely useful, but it seems like the majority of their abilities was balanced around the fact they can free-roam, which in turn caused the rest of their abilities to just sit on this line of "useful but meh" where nothing specific can really shine. This new stance looks to directly change that, which is something i wish they had from level 50.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Iteration

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Well, would rather look at Minuet as a stance called a 'Song', which is simply a spell with a casting time but no cooldown, unlike Cleric Stance that has instant effect but a cooldown to wear it off :/

Same cat, just dirty.

And, who knows? They might have implemented a certain other new support song, just didnt show it in the preview :/

The thing with the mobility was, pretty much every other job has a combo dmg stacking mechanic, but had they ever needed to move to avoid or reposition they'd run the risk of losing their place. Bard practically has none of that save for Straighter Arrow procs but they can maintain max damage while being able to easily reposition themselves anywhere. That, and since songs have a limited range you'd have to be able to follow people in case they just decided you had cooties or something.

The whole shoving mobility aside thing now really irks me. Seems like putting unnecessary new "tactics" on the Bard having to be particular about positioning, when they were the only class never having to worry about that. So just forcing this process of casting times on us is messed up. Yes, they can still move while under Minuet's effect, but maintaining maximum damage output like now will become impossible. They could have at least made it so you move slower while charging your arrows.

The sole reason I play Bard is because it's the only job that can freely move around while doing it's job.

If this is some extra thing that I can decide if I will use or not..cool.

If it undeniably makes you better than a Bard that DOESN'T use this skill and everyone will get mad at me for not using it then.. I guess I don't have a main job anymore. Maybe Botanist. /sigh..

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

About movement

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Well, I suppose the idea behind this is to give the BRD a mayor sense of awareness of its surroundings, just like the BLM must have it now with their new buff, or the DRG with their jumping timings.

Again, Minuet implementation doesn't mean BRD will no longer attack while moving, you just have to turn it off, which Im guessing will be instant, then you can keep attacking while dodging mechanics, just like you've been doing so far.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

snip for text space

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If it turns off as fast as Cleric Stance does then we can just turn it off swiftly and do what we gotta do. Bard never had 'great' dps next to every other DPS and if off-global cooldown skills have a fix we don't know about then there's not much problems to be frank. The only issue would be if it turned off while we were mobile so that we aren't paused in the middle of movement/restricted but all of our other songs do so idk why this song would be different in that case.

But the only real concern should really be off global cooldowns like bloodletter, nothing else. If some bards say "but my deeps so no song aside minuet" well... it's not much different than what we got now anyways...seeing as some don't even sing ballad unless told by a healer.... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

The sole reason I play Bard is because it's the only job that can freely move around while doing it's job.

If this is some extra thing that I can decide if I will use or not..cool.

If it undeniably makes you better than a Bard that DOESN'T use this skill and everyone will get mad at me for not using it then.. I guess I don't have a main job anymore. Maybe Botanist. /sigh..

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Completely agree. Just as bad as giving NIN's positionals. Not the right direction IMHO.

This new Bard song should simply add the cast-times & slow our movement quite a bit... so we can still move, albeit with less freedom so there's a danger to it yet we can still retain that element to the class we love when toggling it.

Honestly, this type of ability sounds better suited to Machinist... they seem a better fit to become a "living turret."

I know some of their abilities already have charge-times in contrast to BRD, but it could further slow the casts & movement in exchange for stronger deeps.

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Hyuga

Completely agree. Just as bad as giving NIN's positionals. Not the right direction IMHO.

This new Bard song should simply add the cast-times & slow our movement quite a bit... so we can still move, albeit with less freedom so there's a danger to it yet we can still retain that element to the class we love when toggling it.

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Read the dev post. That's.... exactly what it does (without the slowed movement). You can move with it still up, but as you have cast times you will not be doing dps.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

Read the dev post. That's.... exactly what it does (without the slowed movement). You can move with it still up, but as you have cast times you will not be doing dps.

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Sorry, I understand that but should have been more clear.

I just meant that it should permit move-and-cast functionality.

In exchange, slowed movement. I just find it a lot more interesting.

Especially if it were like a Deploy/Snipe sort of deal for MCH. Maybe their variant come 4.0 could be this idea of mine.

With the limited info we've received so far, this just feels straight up cumbersome.
Why not add a few new moves with cast times on them for us to strategically place into our rotations. It would still lock us in place forcing us to wisely determine when it would be safe to use while not hindering our movement + damage

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

The sole reason I play Bard is because it's the only job that can freely move around while doing it's job.

If this is some extra thing that I can decide if I will use or not..cool.

If it undeniably makes you better than a Bard that DOESN'T use this skill and everyone will get mad at me for not using it then.. I guess I don't have a main job anymore. Maybe Botanist. /sigh..

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I feel the same way, I've been playing since beta and now the only play style/class I like in the whole game gets changed I kinda just want to stop playing :(

Will we be getting any party songs?