That's not what any players have said though. Or at least very few of the ones trying to progress: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Steps-of-Faith The problem is, has, and will continue to be people leaving immediately. The main things people asked for was not a nerf, but a way to reset to save time. The second most was rewards. Third most was to stop the turtle as he's annoying. But that's a distant third.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Patch Notes are up!
Printable View
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05-12-2015, 04:56 PMKrylo
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05-12-2015, 04:58 PMSpiritreaver1217You know SE had a mindset like you wanted during the mid-aughts. And you know what it achieved? It polarizing effect on their playerbase(talking FFXI btw) and a limiting of said playerbase to a fraction of what it could have been had they gone with a game design philosophy that was inclusive of more types of players instead of a small single subset of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcade
SE is a business and they have, after all this time, have started to learn their lesson. Using totally pulled out of my butt percentages, 3 out of 4 happy-ish players is better for business than 1 out of 4 happy-ish players. Outside of that, i really doubt they give a fig about the skill level of their customers. And to be totally honest, i'd be hard-pressed to believe that even 1/4 players is even a close guess; imo its probably much less. -
05-12-2015, 04:58 PMNatashioOther than this MMO, FFXI has been the only other MMO that I've stayed with over year (7 years played). I have help countless others beat missions, Main story bosses, Divine Might, CoP pre-nerf, BCNMs, and many instance and non-instance fights after my win and received my reward. Why, because I made a commitment with those players shouting in Jeuno looking for help. Why, because the fights were fun... Why...because I'm helping someone on my server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
I bet if they get rid of Duty Finder this instant abandoning bullshit will stop. Of course, SE will have to shut the game down and rebuild it all over again to remove all the damn instances and only put the final boss fights as an instance. Which I know will never happen.
As I said many times already...you guys wanted your WoW 2.0...there you have it. If you don't want to deal with the abandoning on the first wipe bullshiting trolls, I can only suggest to you is move to the Japanese servers. -
05-12-2015, 04:59 PMNestamaIt also needed to drop loot and give the NPC who tells everyone what to do a voice (it still bothers me that the Primals and most Trials have speech bubbles, but no voice actors. Westwind, CM and Battle on the Big Bridge had voice acting).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildsprite
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05-12-2015, 05:00 PMCGMidlander
Woo, my Titan pony is going to be rocking a new song! (Pun intended)
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05-12-2015, 05:00 PMAdamFyiRead the quote I was replying to. Without any context as to what I said, you're creating an argument from nothing. Hint: I was addressing players who "Rage Quit".Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
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05-12-2015, 05:02 PMKarstenSAnd this opinion is the reason so many people are raging against the raiding community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
They don't want to make their own way. They want a carry. -
05-12-2015, 05:02 PMSpiritreaver1217Sure am, finished SoF week one in DF and have zero problem with other having an easier time than i had.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
You are 100% right there my friend! -
05-12-2015, 05:04 PMMagistrellaIm guilty of all your charges except the not doing trial. I still do it, i just do all the others to prevent having to deal with steps of fails.Quote:
But, I mean, REALLY you aren't the problem. SE is. SoF wasn't too hard, it just doesn't give rewards. If you want to do anything with your game time then you would never do SoF more than once. THAT'S the problem. THAT'S what they need to fix. Nerfing the fight into the ground won't help anything, unless they nerf it so hard you can face roll DPS Vishap down in under five minutes.
And i will continue to do so. One (most likely) fail in there, hell, even a not fail taking 10-15 minutes, is taking two or three times as much as every other trial fight. I'll gladly take the 30 minutes and do other daily chores before reentering and getting something else. My time is spent much better when i don't deal with it. And that's where the problem ultimately lies. Add a mount to it, add a trial card, make it drop 200 soldier for new people or 10k gil if you got a newbie with you. Hell, the 10k (+4.5k roulette bonus) would make me stay if i got more then two-three hours on a workday to play. But as it is now, i don't even want to deal it on my free days where i can basically sit the whole day in front of the game, and not even then i want to add just any of my time in there.
Oh and all the people talking about "The fight is all about communication." Try clearing it when you get 7 freaking french/german people that speak no word English even tho you only hooked E on the Duty Finder that dont say a single word before pulling (not even hello in auto translate or whatsoever). Good luck making it about "communication" - there is no way in hell you will make it through if you can not explain the fight -
05-12-2015, 05:05 PMKryloGranted: But in the greater context of this thread people keep trying to blame 'casuals' for this nerf (like it even matters), but if you read any pre-nerf discussion about SoF with mostly people who haven't cleared: No one wanted a nerf. They just wanted players to not abandon immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Can't even attempt to make your own way when 4/8 people immediately leave because they wanted 2-5 minute trial and got 15-80 minute trial with no rewards to speak of. Unfortunately, Vishap can't be 4 manned by the 3 DPS and 1 healer left over.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarstenS
Thank you. This is what I'm trying to get across. There's a good reason people do those things. That's what SE needs to fix. Are you going to go in there now and do 15 minutes for nothing? Especially with 1 wipe still being possible if not likely with enough new people learning mechanics (missing DKs, missing with canons, etc.) I think most people probably won't regardless of nerfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrella
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05-12-2015, 05:06 PMAdamFyiYou're kind of reinforcing the point though. No communication = problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrella
Yep, which is what I was addressing. There are players on both sides that rage quit because they didn't get what they want. Some players quit because they got a trial they didn't want, and some quit because they didn't get a free carry and instead got a ton of wipes. Both are impatient, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
Which is why I run Steps of Faith as a Tank. At least with a tank, we can still beat the fight without a healer. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
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05-12-2015, 05:16 PMGreafWith this community, I think yesQuote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
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05-12-2015, 05:20 PMMagistrellaI didnt say it wasn't ^^ But the lack of communication is not the same as the inability of communication. If you can not communicate you stand no chance on beating content that depends on it. If you're getting people that are unwilling to communicate, but are totally capable of it, that's a whole different problem of the matter :/Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
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05-12-2015, 05:20 PMNalienDoesn't that just back up what I'm saying? If your group don't communicate, they're not going to win. Yeah there are plenty of people in the Duty Finder who seem to our right refuse to communicate, that's the issue SE needs to address, not the "difficulty" of content. Continually making it so content doesn't require a word of communication is one of the biggest problems in this game. It's the reason so many find T5 difficult. It's the reason so many can't even attempt Primal EXs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magistrella
This games casual content doesn't really require any communication, and as a result it's breed players who think that's OK to queue up solo and say nothing. Hardcore content requires communication. Steps of Faith is the first time real time such content has made its way into the main quest. It is by no means difficult, but it requires everyone to communicate.
Disregard the start of this post then xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Magistrella
The fact that SE has basically enabled this problem remains though. By making it so everyone can progress by just queuing solo and saying nothing to anybody, they've given the impression that this is OK behaviour. In an MMO it really isn't though. -
05-12-2015, 05:25 PMLemuria
I can't say I'm surprised to see this nerf. Somehow I expected it would come sooner or later. I didn't think it was too difficult when I beat it first time around, but I can understand the frustration of players in teams who either aren't able or are unwilling to communicate properly.
The more people who beat the content though, the better. After all, we need to warm the benches for Heavensward. -
05-12-2015, 05:31 PMJameinSorry, but I must direct your attention to this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...al-is-too-hard
47 pages, and it was created the SAME DAY that steps of faith was released on the 31st of March. People were shouting about it being 'too hard' within hours, without even trying, because they couldn't one shot the damn thing. Granted that thread has a lot of back and forth later on and people arguing both sides of the coin. I just find it amazing the thread existed in the first place. Couple that with the people already saying it was too hard in game. Or saying communication was impossible, which is down to the players, not the game.
This is one of the reasons why people just facepalm at the nerfs sometimes, because people barely even try they just head straight to SE and ask for it to be made easier instead of as a playerbase, trying to improve a little more.
I'll admit, people leaving trial roulettes are not helping matters at all, or people like me who don't sign up aren't either. But I never signed up before steps so I don't see why I should start doing that, I capped poetics in coil every week and I don't need solds. I am not obligated to go do the roulette and sometimes waste hours of my time. I'm all for helping people, but when people don't even want to help themselves....it gets kind of hard.
Just my opinion on it anyway. -
05-12-2015, 05:38 PMKryloEveryone in that thread except Alpal (the OP) is saying it's doable/not too hard. I read five pages in. Skipped forward 10 more. Skipped forward again. Could not find anyone but him being like "Yeah, it's too hard." Just lots of people saying "I did it--here's how"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamein
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05-12-2015, 05:44 PMCrescent_DuskAnd why is that wrong? Independent play was one of the best inventions for the casual player. Depending on other people for content clears is TIME CONSUMING, and not everyone has 3-5 hour play sessions to spare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I remember my Burning Crusade and Vanilla days in WoW where there was no cross server, and it took virtually an hour just to form a party, only to enter a dungeon and lose one or more hour finding out the people you went with were not skilled enough for the content and your time was wasted.
What you say is wrong is actually rather successful for Yoshi P. It's a game where you log on, get in on the action fairly quick without tedious and long periods of preparation, get your quick fix of entertainment, get your rewards, and can log off in an hour or two.
It's not what all of us may enjoy as gamers, but it is pretty damn accessible and a marvelous business model. The era of the devoted nerd dominating games is coming to a close, I'm sorry to say. Videogames are for more people than just college students or low/middle income employees with time to spare. -
05-12-2015, 05:50 PMJameinI edited my post to get the point I was trying to make across, as it was a little messy I grant you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
Everyone was agreeing, that it was the PLAYERS who were the problem. Not the actual fight itself. In essence saying it was too hard to communicate. The abandoning issue wasn't the main problem, it was that the fight required people to actually have some level of communication and that was apparently too much. Also the players responding were pretty much the ones who HAD cleared it, of course they weren't going to say it was too hard. I was mainly pointing out the people who couldn't clear it would say it was too hard, that was just an example, there have been multiple threads on the forums since then about SoF saying it's to hard for duty roulette, should be moved to trial, should be made easier for main scenario fight etc etc.
Those complaints along with the multiple other threads about SoF have pretty much ensured you will not see a fight like this again, which is sad as it was something different. As a playerbase I would've hoped to see less complaining and more just doing the fight and actually working with each other. Another reason why I don't bother with roulettes anymore, I just stick to PF's and a static.
Maybe I'm part of the problem for that, I dunno, but going into DF's and attempting to explain fights to people only to watch them ignore any advice just aint fun for me.
Anyway, I think I have gone on a HUGE tangent, my original point was people complained about SoF be it asking for nerfs, or simply because the fight required some sort of communication which was the players fault, and in turn got the thing nerfed to the floor, and probably guarenteed we wont see anything out of the normal tank and spank again in story mode. -
05-12-2015, 05:56 PMKryloMaybe not for the first couple days, when everyone was learning it (and only one person was saying it was hard), but:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamein
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Steps-of-Faith Here's the thread where SE finally decided to 'do something'.
What is it complaining about?
And, no, the problem isn't REALLY abandons. It's that abandoning, is, hands down, the SMART thing to do. SoF, even if everything goes perfectly and no one has to explain anything, takes at least 9 minutes. Garuda HM, takes, what? 2? 3? Ifrit about the same. Really every other trial in there is under 5 minutes. Every other trial also gives better rewards.
Like you said: Why would you waste an hour of your time helping new people for nothing? I mean, some people do. Those are good people. But not doing it doesn't make you a bad person. It means SE made a bad design decision, but not in the difficulty. In the lack of rewards. People here, and there, and in the thread you linked even, have said it'd be fine with a particularly high new player bonus, or a mount drop, or a TT card, or just, ANYTHING to make doing it worth while (and possibly moving it to Main Scenario Roulette, where people are expecting to spend upwards of a half hour in a dungeon, not under 5). -
05-12-2015, 06:04 PMWildspritelemme guess, you're one of those FFXI nuts that wanted Absolute Virtue in his original nearly unbeatable stage right? you remember that right? the devs swear to this day he was beatable but they never revealed how and people tried for days on end to find a way to beat him making themselves sick. you know how he was beat before they nerfed him? someone found a glitch that's how.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcade
don't sell your own wins short because they nerf something. SoF is main scenario afterall, if too many people keep quitting it you might have some people leave. now you might not think this is a bad thing but remember this. SE needs to make money to keep giving us content. and if enough people leave SE starts to lose money. this would be bad. -
05-12-2015, 06:09 PMNalienIt's a recipe for disaster, that's whats wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crescent_Dusk
People want to log on, not say a word to anyone, or even listen to anyone else, and still get some gratification? Fine. Let them have that independent play solo. Why on earth would you shove them together with other players if they want to be independent? It is really no surprise that this game has such a tense schism between casual and hardcore. Give them solo content if that's what they want, this whole "I should be carried through every encounter" mentality is just harmful to the overall community.
I wouldn't even say communicating with your party is time consuming. What's time consuming is the people who ignore communication. They're the ones who are ignoring advice and causing wipes. They're the ones keeping themselves, and others, from clearing content. There isn't a single instance in this game that cannot be easily communicated and practiced in the Duty Finder, but the instant gratification mentality just results in people leaving the moment one thing goes wrong and instead looking for a carry in the next Duty Finder group, wasting the entire groups time and just resulting in so much of the hostility we've come to expect from the Duty Finder. -
05-12-2015, 06:09 PMJameinCause and effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
People leaving were not the initial cause, the cause was that some people simply couldn't do the content because it required some level of thought, i.e raised difficulty level because it wasn't simply tank and spank.
People being unable to deal with basics in the game caused the trial to be a nightmare to go into, which had the result of people leaving the duty (and I agree, this is an absolute douche thing to do)
So everyone complaining about SoF, look into the reasoning behind why they say people abandon, some people on the next page of that thread saying it's because people don't know what to do, or if you miss a dragon killer it's a wipe, someone even says it is too 'unforgiving' which I just find...
I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying the abandoning problem stems more from people thinking the fight itself is too hard for PUGS and don't want to waste their time on it. So asking to fix that is pretty much asking for a nerf and you know it. There's already a penalty for leaving DF.
Just saw you edit your post, and this is what it comes down too yes, and that's because when people are presented with a fight that isn't an easy tank and spank, they run a mile.Quote:
And, no, the problem isn't REALLY abandons. It's that abandoning, is, hands down, the SMART thing to do.
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05-12-2015, 06:17 PMKryloNope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamein
Queuing for something (trial roulette) they thought would take 2 minutes, and then having to spend 3 minutes explaining, 9 minutes failing, 9 minutes failing again, and then 9 minutes succeeding did that. Even the absolute best case scenario is using 1/3rd of your lock out time for leaving for no rewards except 15 soldiery and 7 poetics. A whole 3/2 more than Garuda HM, but with no chance at weapon (glamour or GC seals) or TT card, while taking 5 times as long. You could do literally anything else in that time and get better rewards. And that's best case. Average for ANY trial with a good portion of first timers is 2-3 wipes. That's over 30 minutes, longer than your lockout, to get. . . basically nothing.
It's how long the wipes took. Not that they happened. Chrysalis wiped constantly when it was new, too. On day 1 it took me about 3 or 4 DF groups to find one that could do it, running out the clock on the trial at least twice. No one seriously complained about it. It's still not nerfed.
Edit: I edit posts a lot within the first 10-30 seconds because of the 1000 character limit. Which is annoying/stupid. -
05-12-2015, 06:17 PMKirohYou're seriously comparing Vishap to Absolute Virtue in ANY sense much less pre-nerf?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildsprite
http://pl.memgenerator.pl/mem-image/really-pl-ffffff-3 -
05-12-2015, 06:20 PMKrylo
Welp, game's back up, time to stop 'playing forums'.
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05-12-2015, 06:24 PMJameinI can see your point, but that would cause people to NOT sign up in my opinion, because if you were to sign up, get SoF and leave without even trying you then run the risk of getting SoF again on your next run, then you've just wasted an hour doing absolutely nothing at all because you have the penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krylo
Look, I am not disagreeing with you on how people are abandoning it causing more problems. I'm just saying that the whole reason that trial is causing problems, is because the average skill level of the playerbase is pretty damn low and they find something like that too much to deal with in a PUG. So in essence, asking for ANY change to that fight, is asking for a nerf (aside from the idea that you could reset the fight rather than waiting 9 minutes for it to finish, that idea I actually absolutely agree with). -
05-12-2015, 06:26 PMSpiritreaver1217Not speaking for that poster, but personally i got that the mindset for "i wantz teh uber fightin' challenge!!1!!" that ppl against any AV change had was more what was being referenced in that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiroh
And truthfully i can see the comparison. -
05-12-2015, 06:39 PMSarcasmMisserhttp://www.cah.utexas.edu/db/dmr/image_lg/di_05812.jpgQuote:
Vishap's maximum HP has been reduced.
The maximum HP of all enemies that spawn has been reduced.
Damage dealt by certain enemies has been reduced.
Damage dealt by Vishap's underfoot attack has been reduced.
Damage dealt by Bertha cannons upon exploding has been reduced.
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05-12-2015, 06:46 PMMerryl
What even drops from steps that's so wanted??
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05-12-2015, 07:09 PMYumi_umi
So wait no vote reset for SoF?
Whatttttttt -
05-12-2015, 07:13 PMkyuvenConsidering some of the demeaning, insulting replies from other people regarding how "easy" it is and how "unwelcome" the nerf on content they probably don't do anymore is, I'd say communication is a large issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamFyi
Some people, even on a social game, are simply incapable of properly conveying their meaning, and some people are incapable of learning things with a single typed lesson.
It's not the amount of communication that's the problem, it's patience and quality of communication.
Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The only thing people "want" is "challenging content."Quote:
Originally Posted by Merryl
Which SoF is not. It's a roadblock that requires players to operate differently than normal, and with no rewards.
They had two choices: Nerf it, or add rewards that would be obsolete immediately.
Nerfing it helps in the long run since this is a MAJOR "Gate" to the heavensward content.
Another question: If it's "so easy" and "all you need is communication," combined with the lack of rewards, why does it matter if it's nerfed? -
05-12-2015, 07:25 PMYshnal
I'm seriously disappointed with the nerf to Steps of Faith. It seems that everything besides Coil has to be idiot proof these days. Because expecting people to direct, listen and follow extremely simple tactics is too much to ask for. It's better to save those communication skills to complain on the forums.
And yes, I've done it via DF quite some times, explaining it and directing people. Sooo hard, I know. Helping in the ROULETTE without being paid for a carry? Madness, I say!
Square, it would be better if you gift people their 10 tomestones just for logging into the game. It's going to save you time nerfing things. -
05-12-2015, 07:28 PMmirta000How would you have liked your quality, if everyone was stuck in pre-expansion content and expansion content never popped after the first wave of hardcores cleared it? Surely that sounds like a great idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by Starcade
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05-12-2015, 07:28 PMVydos
Holy shit! I expected a nerf on steps of faith. But this is a HUGE nerf.
All they needed to do was either increase the cannon dps. Or lower the adds hp. Going full nerf mode on this by lowering dps+health of boss + adds. Makes this a bit ridiculous. I guess they really want steps of faith to not become a roadblock. -
05-12-2015, 07:38 PMCraiger
Why do people even care about the Steps of Faith nerf?
Normally I hate when they make content easier just because some bad players can't beat it, but it's a story trial without any loot or anything... I completed it on the 2.55 release day, and only did it once more after that. Unless you do the trial roulette, there is no reason for you to even bother with that fight, so why even care?
You have to remember that there is a lot of new players preparing for Heavensward right now, and it's not just the bad players that could get left behind. Even the good players can be left behind because of other bad players, and players that don't have patience... -
05-12-2015, 07:41 PMSpookyGhostYou could literally zerg the wall down 99% of the time. Caster LB made the bees a joke. Demon Wall was never difficult. kbyeQuote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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05-12-2015, 07:45 PMZaftFrom the sound of it, you'll never need to reset SoF. Literally everything about it was nerfed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumi_umi
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05-12-2015, 08:09 PMYumi_umiThey could have just implemented the vote reset so ppl wouldn't QQ about it being nerfed to the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaft
See this is what SE likes to do lol
And now ppl will also be disappointed when they see the news for headstart of new relic in 3.0.
Surprises me that se didn't add a reset in all those nerfs. -
05-12-2015, 08:11 PMkyuvenIt was probably more trouble to add the reset than it was to nerf the encounter, since we don't have a manual reset in any other encounter in the game. Lowering damage values is much more simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yumi_umi