[dev1026] Changes to Claiming and Engaging Enemies

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

So everyone getting to r50 as fast as they can without the knoweledge of how to do their job is rewarding?

I have to disagree. All the work that I've put into the classes I have now could have been avoided by waiting to PL because somebody wants to use up (waste) their time PL me? No no no. Ranking up is EASY enough as it is right now, and PL would make things ridiculously, stupid easy.

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Uh, I do see your point. While I have nothing against PLs I just don't hope that becomes the default way to level.

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Why the claiming system will be removed
We decided to remove the claiming system from FFXIV because we decided that claiming would become a troublesome spec in the future development of the game. When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players, the spec that claiming occurs on a 1:1 basis becomes a nuisance. Also, instances will become more prevalent in future content. The concept of having to claim opponents to prevent being disturbed by other players becomes less and less relevant, so we decided that claiming is unnecessary.

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Implementing future content that requires multiple groups has been done to death in plenty of other games while keeping a claim system that doesn't allow every person in the area the ability to freely attack a mob. Its only an issue of you have no faith in your dev team or your dev team is crap.

The claim system did not need a drastic adjustment. You could have implemented a Group Alliance, Warband, Teamup system where x amount of groups could be combined together into a a raiding party without a drastic claim change, all groups in the larger raiding party would be able to attack the same mobs.

You can't PL until r50, PL will only go as far as mid 30s, then they will be forced to know their job. This helps new players to get into the game easier once this game stops getting big amount of player injection, please take a good look at FFXI and why is there no one at lower rank.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

You can't PL until r50, PL will only go as far as mid 30s, then they will be forced to know their job. This helps new players to get into the game easier once this game stops getting big amount of player injection, please take a good look at FFXI and why is there no one at lower rank.

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That maybe true but i can imagine gaining all those levels without effort could result in a larger learning curve for that player what with suddenly having a ton of abilities traits etc they've never used.

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So everyone getting to r50 as fast as they can without the knoweledge of how to do their job is rewarding?

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To use XI as an example; at no point in slaughtering thousands of little blue crabs did I learn how to fight an HNM. Not one of those crawlers I killed for hours made me realize a better approach to a difficult mission. Not one single Puk or Colibri showed me how to do anything other than how to either use a weapon skill when my TP was 100% or to mash cure if a mob was actively being fought.

At this point in the history of gaming, especially with over a decade of MMOs out there, developers need to give players the benefit of the doubt. We know tanks tank, damage dealers deal damage and healers heal. I'd much rather learn the way roles in a specific game do those things through fun content than killing the same mob repeatedly with the only end goal being the next level.

Toto-Rak is a perfect example of what a modern day MMO grind should be. Especially since there's a threshold of how often players will start over given the nature of required time devotion to an MMO. Asking players to jump ship from a game they're currently enjoying just to climb a steep mountain with the promise that the real content will be fun is becoming an increasingly tall order.

I'd much rather gather a few friends and spend some required time learning the ropes in places like Toto-Rak. But how many battles must we go through to have a level of familiarity with our class/job's abilities? Does it really take months to figure it out? To me, that means there's something wrong with the game design, not the player.

A grind designed to take a month free of PLing seems like plenty of time to learn how one's chosen roll functions in the game world. Outside of that, it's an unnecessary time sink. I'd rather get the grinding over with and have a time sink like the materia system. One I can do at my own pace without missing out on any content because I'm not at the requisite level yet.

If there is one thing I have learned about most MMORPG players, it's that we tend to be the 'path of least resistance' type players. If this change goes through, then there will be parties who will pay a single rank 50 to go with them and just kill everything they touch for a while. In fact, I imagine this will be the vast majority of parties (if parties still grant an EXP bonus... if they don't, then most players simply won't bother).

I guess I'm still not sold that this is actually a good idea. I also think it's really strange to have items and experience determined independently for a kill (whereas in most MMORPGs, if you get the experience, you can get the loot).

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

To use XI as an example; at no point in slaughtering thousands of little blue crabs did I learn how to fight an HNM. Not one of those crawlers I killed for hours made me realize a better approach to a difficult mission. Not one single Puk or Colibri showed me how to do anything other than how to either use a weapon skill when my TP was 100% or to mash cure if a mob was actively being fought.

At this point in the history of gaming, especially with over a decade of MMOs out there, developers need to give players the benefit of the doubt. We know tanks tank, damage dealers deal damage and healers heal. I'd much rather learn the way roles in a specific game do those things through fun content than killing the same mob repeatedly with the only end goal being the next level.

Toto-Rak is a perfect example of what a modern day MMO grind should be. Especially since there's a threshold of how often players will start over given the nature of required time devotion to an MMO. Asking players to jump ship from a game they're currently enjoying just to climb a steep mountain with the promise that the real content will be fun is becoming an increasingly tall order.

I'd much rather gather a few friends and spend some required time learning the ropes in places like Toto-Rak. But how many battles must we go through to have a level of familiarity with our class/job's abilities? Does it really take months to figure it out? To me, that means there's something wrong with the game design, not the player.

A grind designed to take a month free of PLing seems like plenty of time to learn how one's chosen roll functions in the game world. Outside of that, it's an unnecessary time sink. I'd rather get the grinding over with and have a time sink like the materia system. One I can do at my own pace without missing out on any content because I'm not at the requisite level yet.

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I agree on grinding lv's through content like raids is a good example on how grinding should be done. I loved nyzul isle in xi the situation you were put into was never always the same so that feeling of same old same old never really kicked in for me. Maybe thats also because you could only do a few runs once or twice a week though i suppose.

Why dont they just allow us to attack engaged targets only in large PVE events, like every mob has his name on red so is an attackable enemy for everyone, and leave the rest of the claiming system as it is, like if those events were instanced, and if you get to that area you have to accept entering that area with large PvE fight or decide to stay out of it and wait till it ends, and if they want to distribute exp to everyone at the end of the event would be fine, having a different reward for victory or defeat... just my op.

uh why can't they allow players to engage instead of parties. In xi players engage that means if there are 6 people in a party and i commit an action to another mob then that mob is claimed too if i shift my focus that mob is left to declaim in few seconds.

Also why do we have to claim to get rewards in xi you can get full experience for fighting two mobs claimed or unclaimed.

I'm just referencing xi because it's something they've already done. I'm honestly very confused by why this is such a problem with SE.

I just have to echo the desire for some type of feature to block assistance. If I'm trying to solo something, I don't want somebody to come up and smack it just because they want it to respawn faster....

What happened to the Sense of accomplishment when it took a few months to get something and you could show it off....

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Originally Posted by Vesper

Implementing future content that requires multiple groups has been done to death in plenty of other games while keeping a claim system that doesn't allow every person in the area the ability to freely attack a mob. Its only an issue of you have no faith in your dev team or your dev team is crap.

The claim system did not need a drastic adjustment. You could have implemented a Group Alliance, Warband, Teamup system where x amount of groups could be combined together into a a raiding party without a drastic claim change, all groups in the larger raiding party would be able to attack the same mobs.

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Maybe it's just bad wording but that does indeed make it sound like "we're either lazy or incapable" of doing it the hard way.

Maybe you should only be able to help other players when their HP goes to yellow or red. Oh and on that topic color coded HP would be nice white-->yellow--> red numbers plz

I really like this idea. I don't see how it's any different than standing there spamming cure on people while they take 5 minutes to kill something that otherwise would murder them.

People were complaining that having Toto-rak uncapped would mean that no one would do it at r25-r30 and everyone would murder their way through on r50s, but that hasn't been the case at all in the many many parties I've done for it. It's a lot more fun doing it at-rank. This game is being made around choosing how you want to play, and this is another option.

Most of the people I know stopped playing very early on after starting around launch, and they have been keeping an eye on updates. If they return I can help out in multiple ways now depending on what's more fun for myself and for them.

If you want to play without a PL, and I prefer it personally, then more power to you. You are not restricted with having to have a full party to XP in this game, and c'mon, everyone in this game right now is itching to party together. Grab who's there and go xp.

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Originally Posted by Vesper

Implementing future content that requires multiple groups has been done to death in plenty of other games while keeping a claim system that doesn't allow every person in the area the ability to freely attack a mob. Its only an issue of you have no faith in your dev team or your dev team is crap.

The claim system did not need a drastic adjustment. You could have implemented a Group Alliance, Warband, Teamup system where x amount of groups could be combined together into a a raiding party without a drastic claim change, all groups in the larger raiding party would be able to attack the same mobs.

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lol so you assume just because we have a claiming system that allows assistance (which is really pretty common for group MMO's) that it means we won't get alliance content? You people are overreacting, this is pretty standard stuff. Sure people will power level, but people were already doing that using guildleves, and people do that in just about every MMO.

Powerleveling never killed grouping, level sync/solo quest focus/no rewards for grouping has killed grouping, but every MMO I have played with a grouping focus you have been able to power level someone else also. Get over it, it won't become the norm or be "forced on you because everyone is doing it".

Have you ever power leveled someone? They aren't going to be getting 1k xp per kill so it is going to take about as long as a good efficient party. That's not a huge enough advantage for everyone and their mother to offer to power level random player X.

Did nobody notice the large scale pvp words?

You can get power leveled from Lv1 to Lv90 in Final Fantasy XI right now while in a party or alliance.

So, I'll file this as not an issue.

/looks into Crystal Ball..."I see Mob-Trains and Summoner Burn Parties across Eorzea..."

I felt 7 kinds of butthurt for an instant.
Then I realized the same guy that gets PL'd to high heavens hits a wall when he can't be PL'd no more, misses on so much actual "experience" (not the game attribute) and enjoyment-- Hey, his loss. I was afraid that they will be a whole lot less people to party with at lower levels but... Is that the kind of people I want to party with?

Live and let live, eh?

[Comment deleted by Moderator]

It's not like I don't see the benefits to allowing new players to
"catch up" with their friends in a few days; but something is lost
when the whole game focuses only on the so-called "end-game".

Imagine a FF7 that starts with a train ride at LV1, then two days
of afk leveling, and the next thing you know is you're dealing
9999 damage to some faceless underdeveloped Sephiroth.
Nothing in-between. No story. No challenging content, because,
hey, Sephiroth is waiting @LV99.

What people seem to not realize is that by focusing entirely on
how to facilitate leveling, SE conjures up a situation where
mid-level content becomes meaningless because it's possible
to blast through that level range in a few days anyway.

I loved my Borea Cesti in FFXI. Because I knew I could use them
for a while (Promyvions!). In FFXIV, I do not even bother to
kill a mid-level NM @50, because the dropped equipment becomes
useless within days and thus is nothing more than some Rare/Ex
stuff that cluters my inventory.

Very disappointed here. But if it is for the "greater good" (of bringing
in fresh, new players), I guess I will, heavy-heartedly, adapt.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

Comment removed by Moderator.

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if you wanna pay for PL it's a your problem. Also, in almost every game there's a way to PL, so people PL. FFXI had a claiming sistem when nobody could touch the mob after been claimed, and PL existed. People will figure out a method to PL if they have the choise, not much to argue.
Btw, stating PL will be possible, don't mean it's required to exp

And also, it's still better of legalized RMT made in blizzard *coff coff*

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but some weeks ago, the devs said there was no plan to change the rule that forbids to invite players in the party while engaged in a fight. With the removal of the exclusivity-claiming system, I'm not sure to see the reason of keeping this rule. Are there any changes planned?

Well, this thread has turned me off the game pretty harshly for the foreseeable future if Bayohne's post from Yoshi is correct.

Do you guys really think people won't just dual-box their way up? The idea that the rank 50 is sacrificing their time is bogus, because players and RMT can operate numerous characters at a time. This system is going to take away any sense of achievement that character progression brings if you're leaving it as you say.

Secondly, it sounds like the overworld is taking a backseat pretty majorly to instances in the future. This is really disappointing for me, I absolutely hate WoW's system of all instanced content, the world feels dead and pointless, you might as well be sitting in a lobby waiting for the next game. I was hoping we were getting a good balance between some overworld bosses and things to do whilst also having the instances there as an option, not a necessity.
In my opinion, instance runs should be special, not something you grind. That's a terrible archaic design that's dying pretty fast when it comes to other new games coming out, rather than the 10 year old ones that seem to be being used as benchmarks.

Anyways, rant off.

news players to the game will be boned if they don't know anyone way to go!

well maybe to when level caps are raised to combat powerleveling we'll just see astronomically higher exp requirements and level cap quests to make it to further levels lol.

OMG another end of the world thread! This is going to end up like other things that were supposedly going to make this game easier or make this game more "horrible", it'll be implemented, people won't mind as much or maybe ask tweak a few things, and that's it. Life will go on and within a day or two no one will care anymore.

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

if you wanna pay for PL it's a your problem. Also, in almost every game there's a way to PL, so people PL. FFXI had a claiming sistem when nobody could touch the mob after been claimed, and PL existed. People will figure out a method to PL if they have the choise, not much to argue.
Btw, stating PL will be possible, don't mean it's required to exp

And also, it's still better of legalized RMT made in blizzard *coff coff*

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Yep i did alot of PL parties in FFXI with a character selling player that would have me set up the parties for free PLing lol and then met a friend who SMN burned so i did that alot and then abyssea lol thats when i quit. it was there in FFXI so all it is now with this new claim system is just easier. I look foward to the new system and what they do with it.

I'm not convinced that powerleveling will actually be a safer, more efficient method of gaining XP than partying. It all depends on these "other" party and combat features.

• XP cap for enemy level difference.
• Chain bonus for defeating enemies.
• Linked enemy reinforcements.
• Link bonus for defeating enemies.

From how it is described, linked enemy reinforcements are only called at the time the the character initiates the attack, and only once. Also ...

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The number of enemies that will be called upon will be based on the comparison of the strength of the party that initiated the attack (or was detected by the enemy) and the strength of the enemy itself.

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So if you're a solo level 1 character fighting a level 10 enemy, it's not likely to call for linked reinforcements to deal with you. So your link bonus for the encounter will be 0 XP.

A party of eight level 2 characters against that same level 10 enemy would likely cause it to call reinforcements ... that the party is then able to defeat for XP and then get bonus linked XP based on the number of links.

It depends on the numbers, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I'm not convinced that powerleveling will actually be a safer, more efficient method of gaining XP than partying. It all depends on these "other" party and combat features.

• XP cap for enemy level difference.
• Chain bonus for defeating enemies.
• Linked enemy reinforcements.
• Link bonus for defeating enemies.

From how it is described, linked enemy reinforcements are only called at the time the the character initiates the attack, and only once. Also ...

So if you're a solo level 1 character fighting a level 10 enemy, it's not likely to call for linked reinforcements to deal with you. So your link bonus for the encounter will be 0 XP.

A party of eight level 2 characters against that same level 10 enemy would likely cause it to call reinforcements ... that the party is then able to defeat for XP and then get bonus linked XP based on the number of links.

It depends on the numbers, I guess.

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Good post, people are only looking at one piece of the puzzle, like with the crafting changes. Only when the materia post was made is when the crafting changes made more sense. All they see is "OMG PLing", when there could be other features that are much faster than "PLing" such as the link bonus and chain bonus, which may not be possible without parties. If people see that it's better work in a PT and get these nifty bonuses instead of having one R50 kill all their enemies for them then they're more likely to PT.

Not sure this has been mentioned, but in current system you can already PL if you have a r50 character and it can just kill mobs and you get SP by not even touching the mob.
From what Ive been reading in the upcoming system the person who gets PL'd need to touch the mob first, after it can be killed by a high ranked character. So basically you cant just go afk and magically get to highest rank in no time.

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Originally Posted by AkiSajuu

Not sure this has been mentioned, but in current system you can already PL if you have a r50 character and it can just kill mobs and you get SP by not even touching the mob.
From what Ive been reading in the upcoming system the person who gets PL'd need to touch the mob first, after it can be killed by a high ranked character. So basically you cant just go afk and magically get to highest rank in no time.

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You can't get to highest rank in no time period because there is the 10 level xp cap. Sure a powerleveled character can do this quicker maybe, but a full party or just DD heavy party can already practically instant kill group xp mobs for full XP. Hopefully in 1.19 and 1.2 the slower battles they were talking about come into play. Even when being power leveled in XI there was some pace to the battle (when I played at least) that made it an effort (for someone at least).

I have to say I am very disappointed in the direction they are going with this claiming system. It is just giving you a free pass to PL and pretty much everyone will have an R50 outside of the party killing things for them. I hate to refer back to FFXI but what was so wrong with FFXI's claiming system. You claim it and it's yours nobody can touch it unless you call for help and then you get no reward. As for large scale PvE/PvP how is this new system better than what was in FFXI? In Campaign you could attack anything regardless of who was already attacking it and still be rewarded.

The current claim system would be fine if they allowed you to claim more than one thing without losing EXP/SP by doing so any links that come along can be dealt with. Then any content that needs it like large scale PvE just do it like Campaign.

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Originally Posted by AkiSajuu

Not sure this has been mentioned, but in current system you can already PL if you have a r50 character and it can just kill mobs and you get SP by not even touching the mob.
From what Ive been reading in the upcoming system the person who gets PL'd need to touch the mob first, after it can be killed by a high ranked character. So basically you cant just go afk and magically get to highest rank in no time.

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This is also one of the stupidest things they haver done, that you can have a R50 in a party with a bunch of R20's that can one shot everything for them to get them the best SP possible. Again FFXI was much better in that EXP was based on the highest level player in the party so if a R50 killed a R30 mob for some R20's they would get the same SP the R50 would get, so nothing. Was it perfect in FFXI no but it seems like it was much better than what we have now and what is coming.

In short use FFXI's Claiming and EXP distribution system, also add level sync then if that R50 wants to play with his R20 friends he can sync to their level and help them that way.

huray ! another great thing I will wait till more patches then I will catch with the rest of you quickly. :)) Now what hurts me is the fact, that all planned content will be for end-game linkshells again. So player like me in LS where are 3 people has only leves, craft and gathering avaible, so nothing new in content for low linkshells. :(

How poeple always think of the worst case scenario only.

I think it is quit obvious that stuff is getting changed, when powerleveling starts to hurt other players experiences.
Mr. Yoshida is saying so in the transtlation himself.

There are also a lot of reasons why pl won't be that big of an issue here.

1. Grinding takes a lot of time. Repetitive, boring time. Don't know if we are going to find that much rank 50s to "help" out. Because...
2. FFXIV is all about leveling different classes. Getting to rank 50 isn't the focus of the game. It is getting as many classes to rank 50 that can help you. In other words: The rank 50s have good reasons to use their 20/30 classes and actually get sp for the hours of hours of grinding.
3. Doing leves speeds the process quit drastically along. We shouldn't forget about these.

But 2 things make me worry.
1. "AoEing" stuff. THM and CON can easily kill 10 mobs, of a much higher rank in seconds. They would be a pl beast if exp distribution is kind of similar.
2. I fear we will see similar restrictions like the 10 rank cap we have now, which would be quite lame.
There would be the first restriction "hard working" gamers will get because of the people who want to exploit the system and it concerns the players who optimized their gear and their skills. It would punish the best players.

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Originally Posted by RathSkybreaker

In the end its a personal choice as he said, play the game and grind it out or be that guy and get plvled to 50 it's your choice, if majority of the community wants to be that guy and get a ride to 50 then blame the community not the mechanics, because there should be options to help your friends as it does tighten the bonds of community..

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Because it gives players options? What is so hard to understand from what Yoshi-P is saying? PL will not become a standard way to level if the community doesn't enforce it.

In the end it's the players choice to decide if they want to take their time leveling up. Doing solo leves or grind parties and really take the time to learn their class as they level up OR be Power leveled up by a friend to catch up with them and learn their class when they are high level.

Or a mix of the 2, who cares really? YOU play the game like you want to, others will do the same. I know for myself I will not want anyone to PL me so I will not ask for it and if someone offers I will politely decline, that's all.

If someone wants me to PL them? If I have nothing better to do, sure why not? it's their choice how they want to level up and in the end they can play however they want as long as it doesn't forces me to do the same.

chill out and stop seeing the worse in things (that's for everyone)

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Alrighty, Yoshida made a large post regarding the new claim system this morning and we've been working on getting you guys the translation - sorry about the delay.

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Best Yoshida explanation ever! I support the new claiming system for sure!! :D

I don't know about "Power Leveling" - I just don't want to be left behind or too far ahead of my friends. If this happens, at the moment it means "stop playing the game". Personally, I would have preferred Level Sync as that is, for me, the perfect way to avoid this problem.

So here's a question to all those against power leveling (and I'm not saying I'll be involved in it, I probably won't if it means people look at me with disgust in the game...): If there is no level sync, what would you prefer I do if I want to get to the same rank as my friends: Power level, or stop playing?

At the moment my gf and I are carefully balancing but on occasion she'll want to play more than I do and will end up a few levels ahead, so she has to stop playing for a while as I play catch up. It's not ideal at all. When our friends all join in (we have a lot of friends interested in FFXIV but many are waiting for further developments in the game before buying / returning), it will be an issue once again, as we will likely be 30-50 levels ahead of them.

If this is the finalized course of action regarding leveling can we get an auto-translate for...

{Thanks for the help, but I'd rather do this on my own}

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Originally Posted by Seif

Wow am I the only one who thinks helping other players in trouble will be a lot more fun with this system than XI's help command that basically meant throwing away the XP reward altogether.

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no your not the only one. as always people are thinking EVERYONE is gonna PL and kill parties when in fact they are crazy. when my friends start (when ps3 comes out) i will have all DOW at cap and ill be helping them out for a while. but people are crazy if they think ill be PL ANYBODY from level 1-40ish. (can not PL if the mobs can beat you). ill get my friends a couple of lvls then im going to do my thing. i did not come on to PL someone.

Its just funny that people think this will have any effect at all. I can not find a party outside my LS for anything right now. After 1.19 it will still be the same. and its not cause of a PL.

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Originally Posted by Kaida

news players to the game will be boned if they don't know anyone way to go!

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just no.

Without PL is way to easy to rank up now. this will not change anything.

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Originally Posted by DNO

just no.

Without PL is way to easy to rank up now. this will not change anything.

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I agree, I started all over with patch 1.18, and I am practically level 40 now on my main and 20 for THM, did all quests whenever they were available and story missions.

So it took me 1 month to get to that point, might take overall 2 months to get to 50. How is that being boned?

PL will not take over, they just don't want to be too restrictive if someone wants to be PL'ed and enjoys it that way. If that person isn't you, then why do you care? I sure don't care if someone gets to level 50 in 2 weeks or if takes them 2 years, I will get there when I will get there myself and others can get there at their own pace.

Level sync will probably be coming, there was a little post by Yoshi after that one bug post and he mentionned it

from Reinheart's thread:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida
連投ですが「レベル格差PTとレベルシンク」については、
Another post but regarding "Level difference PT and level sync"

・コンテンツ突入時にレベルシンクを行うシステム
・同レベル帯のプレイヤーとPTを手軽に編成するシステム
system where it level syncs when entering a content,
system where it's easier to PT with same level range.


で、大部分解消できると思っていますので、仕様は詰めています。
少なくとも後者はかなり大規模なシステムを想定しており、
実装時期が先になることから、現段階ではまず、PT募集の仕組みを
できる限り調整しようと考えています。こちらは別途続報をお待ちください。
With these two it should solve a lot, we are working on the methods.
We are currently thinking of making as much possible adjustments to PT invitation method since we are thinking a large-scale system and because the implementation timing is far off. Will announce this one at another time, please wait.

ちなみにレベルシンクは「レベルシンク用の装備枠が！」とセットなので、
そちらも頭には入っています。
Also for level sync "Equipment set for level sync!" is a set so that's also there.

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So yeah, if you want to play with your friends and do not want to be PL'ed, you will have that option. If you want your friend to PL you and they agree, you have that option as well. It's all about option and I like that decision, in the end it's how YOU decide how to level up that matters.

everyone wins~