SE WAKE UP! 90% of the lost subscriber base was expecting FFXI-2!

I was expecting 14 to be more like 11 and I was disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Not really. The amount of content had a lot to do with the "failure" (big word, a game isn't failed until it closes, and if you expect this one to close anytime soon, you're more delusional than you look. And believe me, you already look very delusional).
Most people that quit early quit because there was nothing to do, other than leves, even and especially at low levels. Quests are few and far between (and basically everyone *expects* quests nowadays, and the ability to at least partially level through them), and levequests were seen as nothing else than directed grinding, time-limited to boot.
On top of that, there is an absolute lack of tutorial content, which is another thing that's seen as indispensible nowadays.

The lack of content was exacerbated by the slower leveling, which meant that to get to the next batch of content you'd have to grind half a day even at low levels.



Love or hate it, but there are plenty mechanics in the game that are fine, or maybe just need a rebalancing.

Bottomline, if you want a completely different game, with completely different game mechanics, then you should go play a completely different game that suits your tastes more. Because demanding the very basic foundations of this ones to be radically changed is laughable and delusional at best. Ain't gonna happen. And it's a good thing.

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I don't think its delusional at all to think it could be possible that the very core mechanics of the game could be changed. Nor do I think it would be a bad thing. A lot of people have quit for reasons. I really don't think it was only because there wasn't enough leves, or quests to be done. The very fundamental mechanics of combat is flat out boring to me. I mean things like, having to stop, wait 2 seconds then take out my weapon, just to attack? Then having to repeat that again, just to change things in my menu?

Maybe I am one of those people you mentioned should move on to a different game, and I already have. But I have 75$ tied up into this game, and I have been an FF fan since part 1 on the nes. It is going to take drastic changes to get me to look at the game seriously, I think I'm not the only one.

I hope this doesn't start an argument. But why is it that everytime I read a fansite, or now these forums, the people arguing against major changes, or against most changes in general, are those with a sig showing that they are currently playing it? Do you guys really want to be left alone with a very small playerbase? Don't mean to insult you if you fit that description, but each thread I read with avid players arguing against almost every single change brought up makes me feel that you are in denial that you are outnumbered in your opinions of what needs to be changed, and what doesn't.

I loved FFXI, but I wasn't expecting FFXIV to be like it. MMORPGs evolved a lot since 2002, and not just in graphics. I actually think that FFXIV has the potential to become, with time, better than XI.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

I hope this doesn't start an argument. But why is it that everytime I read a fansite, or now these forums, the people arguing against major changes, or against most changes in general, are those with a sig showing that they are currently playing it? Do you guys really want to be left alone with a very small playerbase? Don't mean to insult you if you fit that description, but each thread I read with avid players arguing against almost every single change brought up makes me feel that you are in denial that you are outnumbered in your opinions of what needs to be changed, and what doesn't.

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+1 couldn't agree more

I just logged in to see how bustling gridinia was on bodhum... ran around the whole city and saw 4 people total.

Fabul has plenty of people in Limsa and gridania...And here I thought this was the least populated server. >_>

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

I don't think its delusional at all to think it could be possible that the very core mechanics of the game could be changed.

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Development resources aren't infinite. To redesign the fundamentals of the game they would have to redesign the whole game. It's not gonna happen.

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I really don't think it was only because there wasn't enough leves, or quests to be done. The very fundamental mechanics of combat is flat out boring to me. I mean things like, having to stop, wait 2 seconds then take out my weapon, just to attack? Then having to repeat that again, just to change things in my menu?

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That's nowhere near a "fundamental mechanic" or part of the basics of the game. The basics of the game are the armory system and all the correlated mechanics.
The difference between active and passive stances could be changed or removed altogether, and the fundamental aspects of the game wouldn't change one bit.

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But I have 75$ tied up into this game, and I have been an FF fan since part 1 on the nes.

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The fact that you invested a whole 75$ on the game, and that you like FF doesn't mean that they're going to tailor a Final Fantasy game over your tastes :D

Try adding a few 0s after that 75, and then who knows, maybe?

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But why is it that everytime I read a fansite, or now these forums, the people arguing against major changes, or against most changes in general, are those with a sig showing that they are currently playing it?

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Simple logic would dictate that people currently playing the game do so because they're enjoying at least part of the current mechanics? To be precise, I'm not against change in general, but I'm against the absolutely STUPID idea that since the game has flaws *ALL* of it's mechanics should be scrapped and replaced with more familiar ones (since apparently there aren't enough games in the market that feature those, right?).

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Do you guys really want to be left alone with a very small playerbase?

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The playerbase on my server is quite abundant to be honest. There's no perspective to be left alone.

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but each thread I read with avid players arguing against almost every single change brought up makes me feel that you are in denial that you are outnumbered in your opinions of what needs to be changed, and what doesn't.

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That's a serious logical fallacy, as you automatically assume that since something seems good to you, the majority automatically agrees with you (which is the basic logical fallacy behind this thread, by the way: "I want FFXI-2! This means that 90% of people MUST want the same thing").

If people argue against changing a mechanic, it's because they enjoy that mechanic.

And since people have varied ideas, there will be *always* people that enjoy a certain mechanic. So yeah, there will always be people that will argue against changing it. No matter how much you hate it.

Given that a discussion forum is a place to *discuss* and express opinions, those people will express the fact that they enjoy that mechanic and quite obviously argue against changes that remove/butcher/multilate it.
Or maybe you think they shouldn't express their opinion, because enjoying a mechanic you don't enjoy is somehow a bad thing?

I think the problem with some of us are annoyed at some of those who defend the current system is... they do not list reason. All they said was "this is the FF way, like it or gtfo of this game", or something like that. If I am to write a long proposal of some field of improvement, even though it is my opinion, it does not mean I have to take others' "opinion" seriously when they can't back it up.

I can't believe this thread wasn't created by me.

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Originally Posted by ryuuseikan

I think the problem with some of us are annoyed at those who defend the current system is... they do not list reason. All they said was "this is the FF way, like it or gtfo of this game", or something like that. If I am to write a long proposal of some field of improvement, even though it is my opinion, it does not mean I have to take others' "opinion" seriously when they can't back it up.

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They probably would say that you're the one "not listening to reason". You're not the absolute voice of reason my friend. What seems reasonable to you, may easily seem unreasonable to others.
I've seen PLENTY posts arguing against changes, that were plenty backed up by reason and compelling arguments.
As much as I've seen plenty posts by people proposing changes in which the only argument was "I'm in the majority! So I'm right!" (or even lacking ANY kind of argument).

To be honest, your attempt to paint anyone arguing against a generic "change" as unreasonable, while everyone proposing any kind of changes would be reasonable and polite, is laughable at best (and it doesn't really make you look reasonable).
There are all kinds, on both sides of each discussion.

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That's nowhere near a "fundamental mechanic" or part of the basics of the game. The basics of the game are the armory system and all the correlated mechanics.
The difference between active and passive stances could be changed or removed altogether, and the fundamental aspects of the game wouldn't change one bit.

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You mentioned in a previous post some people quit early because there was not much to do. I was implying that adding more quest and/or leves wouldn't have fixed that problem for me.

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The fact that you invested a whole 75$ on the game, and that you like FF doesn't mean that they're going to tailor a Final Fantasy game over your tastes

Try adding a few 0s after that 75, and then who knows, maybe?

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I'm deffinately not the only 1. And having bought the game means I have opinions about it also.

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That's a serious logical fallacy, as you automatically assume that since something seems good to you, the majority automatically agrees with you (which is the basic logical fallacy behind this thread, by the way: "I want FFXI-2! This means that 90% of people MUST want the same thing").

If people argue against changing a mechanic, it's because they enjoy that mechanic.

And since people have varied ideas, there will be *always* people that enjoy a certain mechanic. So yeah, there will always be people that will argue against changing it. No matter how much you hate it.

Given that a discussion forum is a place to *discuss* and express opinions, those people will express the fact that they enjoy that mechanic and quite obviously argue against changes that remove/butcher/multilate it.
Or maybe you think they shouldn't express their opinion, because enjoying a mechanic you don't enjoy is somehow a bad thing?

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Don't even know where to start here. The fact that any of these discusions are even taking place, is because the game itself is, and has been, in question of whether it is liked or not. Those defending it are starting to sound like the ones that are holding it back the most.

The game needs a larger playerbase. Without any proof of that, can you argue against me in saying it? There are more people saying they dislike the game, than like it. Would you believe that without proof also? If you can agree with either of those 2 questions, than those of you playing, and defending the game, need to be able to accept that changes need to be made, and some of those changes you might not like.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

You mentioned in a previous post some people quit early because there was not much to do. I was implying that adding more quest and/or leves wouldn't have fixed that problem for me.

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If you quit a game for something so small, then your interest in the game is rather shallow.

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I'm deffinately not the only 1. And having bought the game means I have opinions about it also.

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You can have and express all the opinions you like. But you can't demand everyone to agree with you and label as unreasonable (or fanboys) anyone that disagrees. As far as I know, they paid the same 75.

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Don't even know where to start here. The fact that any of these discusions are even taking place, is because the game itself is, and has been, in question of whether it is liked or not. Those defending it are starting to sound like the ones that are holding it back the most.

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Are you serious? In the forums related to ANY game on the face of this Earth there will be discussions and proposals to change or retain every single mechanic. The fact that someone dislikes a mechanic and advocates it's change on a thread is NO proof that such a mechanic should be changed. Otherwise every mechanic in every single game would change once per patch.

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The game needs a larger playerbase. Without any proof of that, can you argue against me in saying it?

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You have absolutely no evidence that changing the mechanics YOU want changed the game will receive a large playerbase, instead of, for instance, losing the playerbase it has.

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There are more people saying they dislike the game, than like it.

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Again, you assume without any kind of evidence that you're in the majority. And even if the majority of people found issue in the game, you have absolutely no idea of the reason of each of them, or of the majority. They can easily dislike the game for completely different reasons than yours, and they may just as easily dislike just PART of it, while still liking some of the core mechanics. I personally know a crapton of people that don't play the game just because of lack of content. That's always a major factor in modern MMORPGs.

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than those of you playing, and defending the game, need to be able to accept that changes need to be made, and some of those changes you might not like.

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Some (keyword: some) changes need to be made, guess what, I proposed quite a few myself. This doesn't mean I won't (or shouldn't) argue against changes i do NOT like.
Sorry to burst a bubble, mate, but you don't possess the absolute truth and you aren't automatically right. Looks like people having different opinions and ideas about the game (and being able to express them) kinda infuriates you. Well, make peace with that, because it'll always be like that, and those people have exactly as much right to express their ideas as you do.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

They probably would say that you're the one "not listening to reason". You're not the absolute voice of reason my friend. What seems reasonable to you, may easily seem unreasonable to others.
I've seen PLENTY posts arguing against changes, that were plenty backed up by reason and compelling arguments.
As much as I've seen plenty posts by people proposing changes in which the only argument was "I'm in the majority! So I'm right!" (or even lacking ANY kind of argument).

To be honest, your attempt to paint anyone arguing against a generic "change" as unreasonable, while everyone proposing any kind of changes would be reasonable and polite, is laughable at best (and it doesn't really make you look reasonable).
There are all kinds, on both sides of each discussion.

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I apologize for making the unintended generalization. By no mean I am annoyed by people back up their ideas with facts and precedents. Let me rephrase my original reply... and thanks for catch that one for me.

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Originally Posted by ryuuseikan

I apologize for making the unintended generalization. By no mean I am annoyed by people back up their ideas with facts and precedents. Let me rephrase my original reply... and thanks for catch that one for me.

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No problem, apology accepted :D

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You have absolutely no evidence that changing the mechanics YOU want changed the game will receive a large playerbase, instead of, for instance, losing the playerbase it has.

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Quote me where I said such a thing? What mechanic did I purpose? I simply said while surfing forums, the people "I see" arguing against near every change proposed, are those playing the game and defending it. Obviously you want to argue against anything I say.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

Quote me where I said such a thing? What mechanic did I purpose? I simply said while surfing forums, the people "I see" arguing against near every change proposed, are those playing the game and defending it. Obviously you want to argue against anything I say.

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Maybe because you're saying something that I find rather nonsensical? That normally does it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

10% representin'.

The game didn't fail because it wasn't XI-2. The game failed because it was released prematurely. Being XI-2 wouldn't have made any difference at that point. In addition, if the game was properly finished it wouldn't have mattered whether it was XI-2 or not, it would have been a success.

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This. I played XI and enjoyed it, but I don't want to play it any more. I'd say people left XIV because there was a ridiculous amount of bugs at release and a piss poor UI, add to that the fact that there was no content aside from leves and a few story quests and well, people didn't find the game enjoyable. You can't really say that 90% of the people that left wanted XI-2, especially without some real numbers to back it up.

It's easy to see why the forums on fansites have been filled with nothing but arguments. I have proposed any of my ideas on this thread thus far. But people assume and argue that I think what I'm saying it right. Yes I'm saying the game needs change. And yes I'm saying I see more people that play and say they enjoy the game arguing against changes, than offering them. My opinion. Chew away at it all you.

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Originally Posted by Aldwin

It's easy to see why the forums on fansites have been filled with nothing but arguments. I have proposed any of my ideas on this thread thus far. But people assume and argue that I think what I'm saying it right. Yes I'm saying the game needs change. And yes I'm saying I see more people that play and say they enjoy the game arguing against changes, than offering them. My opinion. Chew away at it all you.

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Everyone is very passionate about this game and its potential success and these forums really show it. We all can agree on one thing and we want something better and what that "better" is creates the arguments. We all have a good idea about our direction but until we actually get on the path this "forum battle" wont slow down. Once we do hit the path the forums will turn to the normal minority complainers(trolls) saying Yoshi-P the game fails Blah Blah Blah.. Which is completely normal as shown by most good MMOs.

I actually don't mind the battle system the way it is now, since it is something i've never seen in an MMORPG. Its speedy, and it still requires some thought put into it.

I think the only huge mistake in FFXIV was the release date. I know it wasn't ready for a release, I wish it would have been pushed back a couple months. Oh well though, I'm just more interested in the artwork of it. Akihiko Yoshida happens to be my favorite VG Concept Artist. =) No way I'm leaving this game, I'm sure it will be a really fun game down the road.

See? I love to try to copy the art style ^_^;
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/x...njurerclip.png

I am fan BOY!

I have 42 fans of various sizes, folding fans, cooling fans, fan fans!

Dude, we played FFxi for a long long time, time for something new. If you like FFxi [many of us do it's a great game] then continue to play it.

I'll start by saying I would not have minded playing a FFXI-2, although I think my idea of FFXI-2 may be different than some peoples. What I was hoping for from FFXIV was for SE to take the parts of FFXI that worked well and improve upon them, and to take the parts that did not work and overhaul or remove them. Doing this along with the fancy new graphics and new storyline would have made one hell of a game I think.

What we got instead was a game that was different just for the sake of being different. I like the fact that SE was trying to be innovative with FFXIV, and I believe there is still room in FFXIV for original ideas. But they should have gotten the hint that many of the "innovations" they came up were not going to work and/or needed major changes to work when the alpha and beta testers repeatedly told them the core of the game was basically broken.

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Originally Posted by Argh

SE WAKE UP! 90% of the lost subscriber base was expecting FFXI-2!

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No they're not.

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Originally Posted by Argh

fanboys are toxic;

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Yes they are.

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Originally Posted by Steggun

What I was hoping for from FFXIV was for SE to take the parts of FFXI that worked well and improve upon them, and to take the parts that did not work and overhaul or remove them. Doing this along with the fancy new graphics and new storyline would have made one hell of a game I think.

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A million times THIS. Why is it so hard for people to understand this? It's either "Make it FFXI-2" or "Make it completely unique". Two extremes, neither of which are the answer to the problem.

The answer lies in the heart of ba- in the middle ground.

80% of percentages are made up on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Smashington

80% of percentages are made up on the spot.

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But it's funny to see them debunked in their own thread :D

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Originally Posted by Argh

reading the constant whines of the fanboys on these forums has risen my temperature! the forums are being overrun by their arrogance and ignorance. instead of embracing tried and true mechanics from the game's predecessor (FFXI) they instead abruptly reject them without giving a logical reason or proposing anything that's better.

fanboys are toxic;

1] you like the game in it's current state so everything is rosie.

2] you don't like the game in it's current state & don't want FFXI-2, basically not knowing what you want.

3] you say that ffxi sucked, despite being a subscriber to it for years.....

4] you defend the blatant copy-pasted world by saying every mmo does it.

5] you defend the boring-as-hell 1-1-1-1-1-3-1-1-4-2 battle system.

6] you defend the economy-killing & bland armory system that does not allow for uniqueness all because you want to play dress up doll with your mancats.

7] you enjoy teleporting everywhere instead of traveling in a dangerous world.

8] you think ffxi party system is "old and tiresome" so you would rather kill 468 squirls, by yourself.

9] you don't want a death penalty or risk vs. reard system because it's more fun racing and exploiting to max level being invincible.

10] you simplify it all by saying the game just needed more content when in fact the far majority quit before they reached level 20, obviously not caring to see any more content.

11] you think lifeless market wards are better than a bustling full fledge AH structure.

90% of the subscriber base has long quit for the exact reasons you see in front of your screen whenever you log into the game...these same reasons you are trying to defend. the ones still playing are only doing so because the game is free.

FFXIV was purposely designed to avoid everything that defined FFXI. it is a general statement (and factually correct one) of why it died, hard. demanding a continuation of what killed FFXIV is insanity.

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Um, speak for yourself.