Direct X 10/11 Question - Answer (Translated)

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

If they said they were going DX10 that would upset me tbh. Optimize the game for the current direct X before aiming higher.

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The Game is made of the engine... they are not separate....
An engine just provides you with basic common functions that all games need...
3D rendering, 2D rendering, Sound, Animation, Networking....

Without game engines each game would need to be designed from the ground up...
with engines, that gives Devs a base to start with....
You can't optimize a game before the engine for they are one in the same

Even Cabal has capes lol and is dx9, think Aion does too, cant remember.

If they wanted capes, I have two words for you:

HAVOK PHYSICS.

Seriously, Square Enix, the technology is out there - use it, implement it. Don't just run away from it because it's western. USE IT IN YOUR F*CKING JAPANESE PRODUCT.

For god's sake the more this thread gets discussed, the more I realize how Square Enix really skimped on their game engine programming and development.

I mean, what. Wasn't there a "flowing cape" in FF13 in Lightning's outfit? Granted, that was a smaller cape, but it still got animated with physics, right?

I get the feeling our developers in Japan are just coming up with unprofessional excuses.

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Originally Posted by Cutriss

That's the thing that baffles me about this the most. If it's that important...because they're going to use Crystal Tools for years, because they want the long-term income stream from XIV...why aren't they staffing the project?

Deus Ex ships in just over a month, that project uses DX11 and the Crystal Dynamics engine. If anyone can help them get this back on track, Eidos Montreal can.

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You reading this thread, Square Enix? Hop to it. Start a "Foreign Exchange" program with your western studios so your japanese programmers, designers, and artists can learn what it means to be a game developer in the next game generation - not the last game generation.

Right now I get the feeling Square Enix is an old man who's lost his hearing, and we have to f*ckin' yell to get him to hear us at all.

(Lacking common industry sense doesn't help either.)

If they did add DX10/D11 wont that mean we need about setup of 4 video cards? Seeing how even people with 2 are having issue with this game. I think if they fix the core system i think anyone could play this game even dx11 but sadly SE does not want to add.

In 3years when this game look bad SE would just make a update DX10 and the game would look awesome again. 2-3years later DX11 and once again the game would be better so i think this is the mind set they looking into when it come with dx10/11.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

If they did add DX10/D11 wont that mean we need about setup of 4 video cards?

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No, not in anyway what so ever, Infact it'd probably help the game run for machines with better cards. They could make it dx11 now and not change a thing, be pointless. One of the main changes would probably be water because atm its fugly fake and has no particles.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

If they did add DX10/D11 wont that mean we need about setup of 4 video cards? Seeing how even people with 2 are having issue with this game. I think if they fix the core system i think anyone could play this game even dx11 but sadly SE does not want to add.

In 3years when this game look bad SE would just make a update DX10 and the game would look awesome again. 2-3years later DX11 and once again the game would be better so i think this is the mind set they looking into when it come with dx10/11.

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DirectX 11 doesn't mean "you need more powaa!"....it just means "you need more compatibility". AKA, any card with DX11 support is bound to be better than a Radeon 4870.

DX10/11 would actually make the game perform better if SE took advantage of DX10/11 multi-processor support and better multi-threading.

gotta be some of the dumbest shit i have ever heard i just got brain-farked.


i am referring to the Mod post about 10/11 direct x

Don't listen to any of them, go with opengl it's universal and much better, only miscrosoft xbox uses dx. I'm sure the ignorant masses love their bluescreens but if you want quality opengl is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Alia

Don't listen to any of them, go with opengl it's universal and much better, only miscrosoft xbox uses dx. I'm sure the ignorant masses love their bluescreens but if you want quality opengl is the way to go.

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Yeah, 'cause that's so much easier than going from DX9 to DX10, right? Especially when SE's entire team hasn't used OpenGL before?

Get that Linux fanboy crap outta here.

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Originally Posted by Cutriss

Yeah, 'cause that's so much easier than going from DX9 to DX10, right? Especially when SE's entire team hasn't used OpenGL before?

Get that Linux fanboy crap outta here.

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While I agree... DirectX is the way to go... The PS3's PSGL is in fact based on older OpenGL API's....
Of which SE actually has tons of experience
Regardless though, you're right, the shaders and textures in this game would definitely benefit from DX10/11

To put in layman's terms for anyone who isn't a nerd like us...

A large part of the games graphics are running on the CPU and aren't even optimized to run multi-threaded very well...
DX10 and to an even further extent 11 just take certain 3d rendering jobs and task them to more efficient places by utilizing the GPU and multi cores better

I want another response to this thread, I hope the universally negative reaciton gives you an idea of what we think of making a game crappier for a console port that's NOT EVEN OUT YET. When the console's next generation is most likely being announced next year.

I've worked in OpenGL. I have no problem with it myself.

Citing bluescreens and "ignorant masses" in a completely unrelated discussion demonstrates that the suggestion was not well-intentioned.

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isnt 11 old news now anyway?

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nope theres only DX & openGL.

the ps3 only does openGL so moslikey if they do go over to dx11 on pc they are gonna need to do some things twice since dx11 is way ahead of opengl and way different even compared to dx9

DX11 is way ahead of OpenGL, even John Carmack said so in a recent interview. Then again, Carmack also said that his upcoming games are all being made in OpenGL so take that for what it's worth. And even though DX11 > OGL, the PS3 uses OGL.

The main differences between DX and OGL is that OGL tries to support old hardware for as long as it can, while DX with every new generation basically sets a minimum and if you're below it then TFB. It won't be long before OGL catches up to DX11, but it's really up to S-E whether they want to continue supporting old hardware and multi-platform or if they want to set a hard minimum for what hardware can play their games.

Now, all that said...

1. Modern games still use DX9. See The Witcher 2, which was just released as a DX9 game. Witcher 2 is a high graphics game.
2. Jumping to DX10/11 won't make the game better.
3. Enabling DX10/11 may allow modern hardware to run the game more efficiently.
4. Patching in DX10/11 support is relatively easy compared to rewriting the entire engine because your knickers are in a twist.
5. S-E is managed terribly so don't expect any miracles.

Oh and

6. Even with DX11 support, you're still going to clip through your hat.

The overriding reason is most of the world is still on XP. MS made it so DX9 is the common denominator.

They should support dx10/dx11 but don't expect that common denominator to go away for a very very long time.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

The overriding reason is most of the world is still on XP. MS made it so DX9 is the common denominator.

They should support dx10/dx11 but don't expect that common denominator to go away for a very very long time.

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Latest Valve poll showed that only 20% of steam users are not DX10 capable.


Anyway. I'd settle for some OpenCL enabled Havok physics...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCaGb40Bz58

Hate my knees going through my hauby!!!1111111111eleven /ragequit

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Latest Valve poll showed that only 20% of steam users are not DX10 capable.

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A poll of Steam users is not representative of the world at large. It is representative of Steam users who opted to take the survey. 90% of Steam users purchased Portal 2. Does that mean only 10% of the world hasn't played it?

Steam and FFXIV are different markets.

Most of the world is still on XP. Most people upgrade their computers on a 5-year cycle. Windows 7 came out in 2009, so XP still has 3 more years before it's archaic.

S-E does need to enable DX10-11 support eventually, but DX9 is still plenty sufficient for graphics-based games (Witcher 2) in the hands of a capable developer. First priority though should be maybe finding a capable developer to handle the optimization.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Anyway. I'd settle for some OpenCL enabled Havok physics...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCaGb40Bz58

Hate my knees going through my hauby!!!1111111111eleven /ragequit

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

A poll of Steam users is not representative of the world at large. It is representative of Steam users who opted to take the survey. 90% of Steam users purchased Portal 2. Does that mean only 10% of the world hasn't played it?

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Portal 2 being a valve game I expect bias towards % of steam users getting it. Set that bias aside and yes, it would mean that 90% of PC gamers have played portal 2.

Also since steam has a huge library with so many different genres I just don't see why steam users aren't representative of the PC gaming world in general. Or how it matters that "Steam and FFXIV are different markets" when we are talking OS+GPU adoption.

Sort of a funny take on SE making another movie based on the "Direct X" explanation from DEV's.....

"So lets make another FF Movie" ..."Okay but we better make it in B&W, since there are still people in the world that use B&W" ..."Sounds great, but perhaps we should do it direct to videotape, since some people might not have access to theaters or color playback or DVD" "Okay so we're going to release it as a flipbook..."

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Portal 2 being a valve game I expect bias towards % of steam users getting it. Set that bias aside and yes, it would mean that 90% of PC gamers have played portal 2.

Also since steam has a huge library with so many different genres I just don't see why steam users aren't representative of the PC gaming world in general. Or how it matters that "Steam and FFXIV are different markets" when we are talking OS+GPU adoption.

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Talk about a walled garden...

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

Steam and FFXIV are different markets.

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You do realize that Steam sells FFXI right?

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Originally Posted by Belial

You do realize that Steam sells FFXI right?

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Shh, don't use logic. Steam is for gamers, and FFXIV player are... uhh... totally not gamers.

It's like the programmers were locked in a room buried under a rock at the begining of development and didn't come out until release. Now we have the same shitty coding that FFXI had cuz SE refuses to stay current.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Portal 2 being a valve game I expect bias towards % of steam users getting it. Set that bias aside and yes, it would mean that 90% of PC gamers have played portal 2.

Also since steam has a huge library with so many different genres I just don't see why steam users aren't representative of the PC gaming world in general. Or how it matters that "Steam and FFXIV are different markets" when we are talking OS+GPU adoption.

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Steam does have many genres, but primarily its market is PC gamers and FFXIV's market is people who play JRPGs. How many JRPGs are on Steam?

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Originally Posted by Belial

You do realize that Steam sells FFXI right?

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Yes, it was added to Steam rather late in the game. I imagine FFXI didn't get many new subs from Steam, since FFXIV isn't on there and neither are any other FF games. If Steam and FFXI's market overlapped, you'd think S-E would be using Steam more.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Shh, don't use logic. Steam is for gamers, and FFXIV player are... uhh... totally not gamers.

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You know that deriding me for saying FFXIV and Steam are different markets says more about you than it does me? For one thing, it says that you think all gamers are alike. I know a lot of people who played FFXIV but don't have Steam accounts, and I know a lot more people who have Steam accounts but never played FFXIV. I know a lot of people who play some games but not others.

But you, Wolfie, you seem to think either a) that everybody everywhere plays everything, or b) that everyone who plays FFXIV also plays the complete Steam library.

You don't allow for differences of taste or opinion. That's pretty closed-minded for someone with a My Little Pony fetish.

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Steam does have many genres, but primarily its market is PC gamers and FFXIV's market is people who play JRPGs. How many JRPGs are on Steam?

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The discussion is how many data have steam on people dx11 capable,which is huge , not what games it have. The fact steam don't sell ffxiv is totally unrelevant with hardware polls

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

The discussion is how many data have steam on people dx11 capable,which is huge , not what games it have. The fact steam don't sell ffxiv is totally unrelevant with hardware polls

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The discussion is whether Steam's data is relevant to a discussion of FFXIV's needs. That sort of makes whether Steam sells FFXIV totally relevant.

A recent poll of Pokemon players found that 97.3% of them love Pikachu. Does that mean S-E should add Pikachu to FFXIV? I mean, only 2.7% were undecided on their love of Pikachu. Get with the times, S-E!

(What's that you say? "FFXIV isn't Pokemon?" Well, FFXIV isn't Steam either.)

("But some FFXIV players are on Steam!" Yeah, and some FFXIV players play Pokemon. QED.)

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

A poll of Steam users is not representative of the world at large. It is representative of Steam users who opted to take the survey. 90% of Steam users purchased Portal 2. Does that mean only 10% of the world hasn't played it?

Steam and FFXIV are different markets.

Most of the world is still on XP. Most people upgrade their computers on a 5-year cycle. Windows 7 came out in 2009, so XP still has 3 more years before it's archaic.

S-E does need to enable DX10-11 support eventually, but DX9 is still plenty sufficient for graphics-based games (Witcher 2) in the hands of a capable developer. First priority though should be maybe finding a capable developer to handle the optimization.



Agreed.

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Heres the thing, people who play ffxiv dont only play ffxiv, and they dont only play JRPGs.

The steam community is absolutly huge, sometimes I find myself just looking on steam at what there is and if I had the money I would have bought loads because it is easier than going to the shop to get em.

Also anyone that needs a high spec PC upgrades on a 3 year cycle, if it was on a 5 year cycle after the 4th you would not beable to play any games new games.

The only people that buy on a 5 year cycle is average users that just browse the web and other things that dont need a highly spec'd PC. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp this site shows a monthly break down of the OS market share, while XP has 40% of the market, 7 has 35% and if you look at it closer for 2011 only 7 has taken 5% of the market off XP, so by the end of 2011 if the trend continues windows 7 (and therefore DX10/11) will be the market leader.

Looking at this information SE would be stupid not to upgrade to DX10/11 before the end of the year when win 7 will be leading the OS market.

And I know you are going to say this doesnt represent the share of people that play ffxiv, but it shows the OS market trends and what SE need to be thinking about is potential players, not the people that play now

There's a lot of assumptions and misinformation in this thread. DX11 Cards have not been out that long, and the adoption is not where most of you think. Google it.

Here's a link to the most recent Steam hardware survey: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Bunch of armchair experts in here.

Hell, even Crysis 2 has been firstly released with DirectX 9, then they've updated to DirectX 10, but before it was still pretty good.

Just give the Dev team the time to better the DirectX 9 version of the game, as the changes to DirectX 10 need to be made when everything is ok with the previous version. That goes with everything in this world if you want Quality.

23.16% have a DX11 capable GPU.
68.09% have a DX10 capable GPU.
61.96% are using an OS and video card capable of DX10.
66.5% are using Vista/W7.
22.63% are using XP.

What about misinformation?

I am one of the users that is still on xp , however my hardware could run dx 11 if i upgraded to win 7 , which intill windows 8 next year i have no plans to.

I would not be agaisnt the idea, someone said that wow has a mode you can switch as long as the game did not require it then i would be ok with that.

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

The discussion is whether Steam's data is relevant to a discussion of FFXIV's needs. That sort of makes whether Steam sells FFXIV totally relevant.

A recent poll of Pokemon players found that 97.3% of them love Pikachu. Does that mean S-E should add Pikachu to FFXIV? I mean, only 2.7% were undecided on their love of Pikachu. Get with the times, S-E!

(What's that you say? "FFXIV isn't Pokemon?" Well, FFXIV isn't Steam either.)

("But some FFXIV players are on Steam!" Yeah, and some FFXIV players play Pokemon. QED.)

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Awesome SE logic, you should apply for a job there!

I am not about to educate you on interpreting simple statistical data, so I leave you with this: LAWLS!

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Originally Posted by MaxWinter

I am one of the users that is still on xp , however my hardware could run dx 11 if i upgraded to win 7 , which intill windows 8 next year i have no plans to.

I would not be agaisnt the idea, someone said that wow has a mode you can switch as long as the game did not require it then i would be ok with that.

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Windows 8 is not even in Alpha it probably will not even be out next year most likely we wont see it until early 2013

Windows 8 was officially slated for 2012 with Beta and RTM several months before whichever date that is.

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Originally Posted by Belial

You do realize that Steam sells FFXI right?

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LMAO

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

I know a lot of people who played FFXIV but don't have Steam accounts, and I know a lot more people who have Steam accounts but never played FFXIV. I know a lot of people who play some games but not others.

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Anecdotal evidence is not strong evidence.

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Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_

A recent poll of Pokemon players found that 97.3% of them love Pikachu. Does that mean S-E should add Pikachu to FFXIV? I mean, only 2.7% were undecided on their love of Pikachu. Get with the times, S-E!

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This isn't a very good analogy. The point was that DX10/DX11 adoption among Steam users was at a fairly decent level, and that the general habits of Steam users and FF14 players most likely have a non-trivial level of overlap. Therefore, in lieu of the lack of hardware data from the people who are actually playing FF14 itself, using Steam data as a general indicator of gaming habits is a decent indicator.

Nobody is saying that Steam = FF14. Only you are saying that.


But wait! Perhaps there IS actual data about FF14 players we can draw on!

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...98e4034b898102

In the first players poll, 41.3% of players stated that the feature they find most appealing is the graphics.

Now, if they are gamers who like graphics, I really doubt that most of them are running around with crap GPUs.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

This was posted in response to asking about support for DirectX 10 and DirectX 11, specifically. When taking into consideration the performance of the PlayStation 3 version, we currently have no plans of supporting DirectX 10/11. However, in the event that large changes or alterations take place to the graphics, or if DirectX 10/DirectX 11 continue to grow in popularity, we will begin to support them.

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Yeah, that's an ok response, SE. :rolleyes:

But, here is what you should have said...

"Having chosen DirectX 9 as FFXIV's base API, we realize the PC version of FFXIV suffers from unoptimized performance-issues and we fully intend to fix these problem. We also understand that our player-base deserves only the best in both game optimization and visual fidelity; therefore, plans are being drawn up to modernize the game for support of all current versions of DirectX. Due to budgetary and staffing constraints, we will first be focusing on fixing FFXIV's core mechanics and game-play issues. Once these adjustments are implemented and the game is launched for the PS3 (assuming a successful launch and we all keep our jobs) we will then begin work, alongside standard content additions and future expansions, to fully optimize the game for DirectX 9, 10, and 11. These updates will be done to showcase FFXIV as a flagship product from SE, and to provide our customers with the best in compatibility, optimization, performance increases, and forward-thinking advancements; as well as implementing improvements to graphical-quality on more modern APIs. As a would-be leader in the MMO genre we, FFXIV's staff and SE as a company, plan to keep a steady eye fixed on future hardware and software developments, such as next-generation consoles and unreleased APIs (DirectX 12 and beyond) so as to one day add support for these future technologies to FFXIV. These future updates (as they are implemented) will ensure the continued success, growth, and longevity of the FFXIV world and the continued enjoyment for all those who inhabit it. We thank you for your support."

Gosh, that would have been refreshing to read. ;)

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Originally Posted by Aravou

Gosh, that would have been refreshing to read. ;)

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It would have been very refreshing. What's nice about the statement you wrote is that it says pretty much the same thing as the official response, and yet doesn't even promise anything (in the short-term), but still sounds good.

I think that in general - about these dev posts - you guys need to take into account that the Japanese dev responses are just being directly translated into English, and that in a general sense, Japanese language PR doesn't exactly sound the best to Western ears. I would hope that you could give them a little slack in that regard due to cultural differences.

That being said, that doesn't mean they can't do a better job of it :)