Letter from the Producer LIVE Part X: Will the netcode issue be honestly addressed?

oops
(answers to your questions are above, Arcari. Post #116)
(for whatever reason I posted here but I had reserved a post above already :p )

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Yeah, I understand that part of it.. I just think saying something (even if it is just PR crap) would be better than nothing. I mean.. that's what the PR department is there for right? I also think if they don't plan on addressing it then it will end up damaging their reputation more for future titles if they keep quiet and pretend it doesn't exist. There have been lots of MMOs, or products, with botched releases that retain customers by how they react to them. As silly as it is to talk about trust between a company and a customer, that bit is important. Customers need to trust that the company will address concerns, especially major concerns. When a company breaks that trust, as SE is doing by remaining utterly silent on the matter, it takes considerably more effort to regain that customer after they leave.

I should probably state that I use to work as a customer service rep for Amazon. So my expectations on customer service, and establishing trust with your customer are exceedingly high.

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I so agree with all that. Well, maybe I just think that at this point they need substantial PR as in the noble sense of "public relations" and not just some spin doctoring that wouldn't mean much, but I totally agree with the rest.

And why am I not surprised you worked for Amazon? :p So indeed, you do know how incredibly good customer support can be, and how it goes a long way towards building a lasting trust with your customers. Which is what matters most, much more than selling one product or two, much more than losing a dollar here and there.

I've never heard of a game that successfully ignored a problem and made it go away. If anything refusing to address the problem is likely to make it far worse because everyone will come up with their own crazy theory as to why the problem isn't addressed. If SE just said 'this problem cannot be fixed' (which is very likely the case), at least people will know to move on and probably leave without too much ill-will. Yes you can say that seems like a suicidal statement to say, but do you really think there are people who don't like that this lag that is saying, "Well SE never talked about lag so clearly it's just my imagination'? No people who are bothered by this problem is likely going to be more angry that the problem is simply never addressed as opposed to just being told there's nothing that can be done about it. The lag is a very big issue. There's no way to just pretend it's not there.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

I've never heard of a game that successfully ignored a problem and made it go away. If anything refusing to address the problem is likely to make it far worse because everyone will come up with their own crazy theory as to why the problem isn't addressed. If SE just said 'this problem cannot be fixed' (which is very likely the case), at least people will know to move on and probably leave without too much ill-will. Yes you can say that seems like a suicidal statement to say, but do you really think there are people who don't like that this lag that is saying, "Well SE never talked about lag so clearly it's just my imagination'? No people who are bothered by this problem is likely going to be more angry that the problem is simply never addressed as opposed to just being told there's nothing that can be done about it. The lag is a very big issue. There's no way to just pretend it's not there.

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I agree. If i quit now then i will allways have in mind that SE never did anything about the issue and that they where not able to do something about it. That will always be in my mind. Not only when i talk with frinds about FF 14... It will remind me everytime when i see a new game from SE...

Back to the front page with you.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

I've never heard of a game that successfully ignored a problem and made it go away. If anything refusing to address the problem is likely to make it far worse because everyone will come up with their own crazy theory as to why the problem isn't addressed. If SE just said 'this problem cannot be fixed' (which is very likely the case), at least people will know to move on and probably leave without too much ill-will. Yes you can say that seems like a suicidal statement to say, but do you really think there are people who don't like that this lag that is saying, "Well SE never talked about lag so clearly it's just my imagination'? No people who are bothered by this problem is likely going to be more angry that the problem is simply never addressed as opposed to just being told there's nothing that can be done about it. The lag is a very big issue. There's no way to just pretend it's not there.

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I agree.

Let's consider Yoshi's recent posts on a variety of topics.

• The Operation and Splitting of Patches for FFXIV: ARR
• Upcoming Changes to Allagan Tomestone Acquisition
• Planned Changes to Warrior in Patch 2.1
• Crafting and High-Level Items

The man is eloquent as ever, to the point, quite honest and transparent in how he approaches players… I do like that, very much so.

Reading such posts, as previous ones, there's just no denying that he knows MMORPG's and has quite the experience in spotting design flaws and features limitations. His observations on past/existing MMO designs are quite spot-on and undeniably true; and if I don't necessarily agree (or rather, have fun) with all the solutions he comes up with, that's more due to a matter of taste (subjectivity and opinion) than a matter of being 'wrong' or 'right'.

That being said, I therefore just can't wrap my around the fact that he wouldn't see the problem with the network code. If he did take the time to at least try his own game while travelling to the US or EU, he just wouldn't fail to noticed something. He actually hints about it in these recent posts, twice.

In "The Operation and Splitting of Patches for FFXIV: ARR":

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Now, I’m aware of the requests to release minor tweaks first—improving existing functions and adjusting jobs, for instance. However, most of the functions being discussed are closely tied to the server code, and requires more work than it seems."

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About development branches in the same post, he also says:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

There are even more test lines than above, but it would get overly complicated, so I won’t touch on them.

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One of these test lines could very well be dedicated to a new attempt at netcode, couldn't it?

Also in "Upcoming Changes to Allagan Tomestone Acquisition":

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

I realize patch 2.1 was originally scheduled to be released in November, but due to problems with server congestion, and the need for server and system improvements, we were forced to delay the release one month. However, I assure you that the wait will be worth it, as the upcoming patch will not only include plenty of new content, but also improvements to the user interface and additional system updates.

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These two posts of his are unrelated to the netcode issue per se, but the bits I've highlighted (in teal bold) could not, by any means, have been written by him without thinking of the ongoing netcode uproar. These are quite 'taboo' words these days in SE's communication towards FF XIV players, they make one's mind 'tilt'.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, maybe not—I wish I knew. If that was a corporate double-talk to hint at the fact that they're aware of some shortcomings of their 'server code' and the need for 'system improvements', beyond the basic bread'n'butter of running any MMO, then this may be it. This may be all we get worded about this issue.

Perhaps he was paving the way for a more substantial update on the netcode issue, so as to be able to deny not having talked about it somehow, yet also deny promising anything about it at the same time. That's a long shot I'm making here, I know, it's anything but far-fetched; but that's common PR subtlety: vague words, mere hints can cover up huge realities. It's all in-between the lines, sometimes.

Anyway, I'm fairly convinced that these two facts are true:

• He knows. He's not the kind of man self-complacent enough to ignore neither the amount of negative feedback, nor the issue itself.
• If he can possibly do something about it, he will. The question are "can he?" and "when?", if ever.

Now, the "Letter from the Producer LIVE" events are quite visible and aimed at hyping up the game, so given his recent posts that directly address several player concerns, I wouldn't hope for any strictly negative insight ("sorry we made a mistake" etc.), it's just not appropriate for this kind of communication, marketing-wise.

Addressing this issue in such a publicised event should imply taking the high road ("sorry, blabla; but we have a great plan to improve it and it will happen soon, please look forward to it etc."). And indeed, it would be the ideal place/moment to make sure all players know that the netcode is addressed and will get better.

We should stay tuned. If a confirmation that they've heard us is coming, it will be tomorrow. If they don't have anything in store—yet, or ever—to make the situation any better, then we won't hear a thing about it, and that (silence) will be our (negative) answer. They know we won't stay tuned eternally, and the clock is ticking; so even if their solution may only come with 2.2 or later, they know it must be addressed sooner rather than later with us players.

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Originally Posted by Arcari

Just out of polite curiosity...what exactly do you want to hear from them? Do you want them to just admit that they don't know wtf? If they just confess that, won't you and everyone else who considers this the public issue #1 quit on the spot? Also, were you the one who made that super-detailed topic about why this issue can't be fixed or something? So if the devs come out saying "hey we can fix it!" wouldn't you perceive that as flat out lies? I'm just honestly wondering how you want this to proceed.

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Considering I already cancelled my subscription, and I'm sure others have as well, silence didn't get them anything. So coming out clear and saying whether they are planning to do something about it or not will make me reconsider things.

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Also, a hypothetical question since I'm bored: If SE was to come out and say "hey we acknowledge this problem, we're going to try to fix it, but since this is deeply routed in the source code, we need to shut the game down for a month or two," how many of you would honestly be willing to wait that long?

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I am still willing to come back if they fix it. They also don't have to shut the game down, this would break it for those who are less affected by the issue. I don't mind waiting, SE. I plan on checking on the progress and will come back as soon as it's not an issue. So please, fix it.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

[extrapolations on possible hints droped by Yoshi P about the delay issue]

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I so hope you are right. But if it was being worked on, I really can't see any reason why they wouldn't adress it explicitly. Fear of driving away potential players who would take it as a "I'm a non JP player, I will get lag, no point in trying the game"?
The only other reason I can see is that they don't know yet if they will be able to fix it. Even then, saying "working on it, not sure it's possible" would most definitely apease at least part of the players, and go a long way in restauring trust in those that have lost it/are losing it, and it wouldn't even bind them to a promise they might not keep.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

teal bold

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It'd be nice to think the parts you've highlighted are some kind of secret wink at the subject, but even mashing the contexts together like this, I'm not seeing it.

In the first quote, he's talking about development branches and testing things. He mentions server code because, most likely, they only have a handful of test servers running various branches of testing code. If a particular feature or function is coded on the client, it's (comparatively) easy for a developer to change some things, compile a version of the client with just those changes, and see what happens, without having an effect on anything anyone else is working on. If a feature is something that needs to be changed on the server, that change needs to go through more steps, and it's less likely any given developer can just whip something up and try it on the fly.

The part about the need for server improvements was specifically talking about the enormous clustercuss that was open beta/launch, and the scrambling they had to do just to get to the point where everyone could even log in and stay connected. That took so much time and resources that it screwed up their schedule. He's not saying anything about the current state of the servers, just that they were badly broken, and that pushed back all their other plans. And "additional system updates" is so laughably vague, I wouldn't take it to mean anything at all, especially given the way SE publishes & translates changes to their games ("Such and such has been adjusted" - Gee, thanks for the helpful patch notes, guyz). In that sentence, "system" just means "not UI," since he mentioned UI changes specifically, but didn't want it to sound like 2.1 was all UI updates.

I'm sure he is aware of the netcode issues. And I hope he does say something on the subject during the live letter (if not before; you never know!). And subordinate to that hope is the hope that anything he says isn't just more useless victim-blaming (research harder, WARs; zoom out). But I really don't think anything he's said in these posts has anything to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Billie21

I so hope you are right. But if it was being worked on, I really can't see any reason why they wouldn't adress it explicitly. Fear of driving away potential players who would take it as a "I'm a non JP player, I will get lag, no point in trying the game"?

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Yeah, possible.

⬇︎ Click for more blabla :p

Actually, that's something I came across quite a bit when I did a bit of community management back in the day (indie web-based games), and later on also as store manager in customer relationship and brand image (cloth retail).

In my personal experience, Producers and Higher-ups have a "brand approach": they would see PR/marketing as the primary sale factor, whereas the technical aspect of the product just needs to be "good enough". I translate that vision into: "sky's the only PR/marketing limit" (looking for the best, always, but there is no 'best') whereas "tech & quality must meet a threshold" (looking for that threshold, anything above is a waste of time/energy/money). See what I mean?

On the contrary, for Directors, Designers, Factory leaders, 'tech people' in general, it's the exact opposite, they have a "product approach": "sky's the only quality limit" whereas "PR/marketing must meet a threshold" (but anything above is useless if quality isn't there etc).

Image vs. substance, in a way.

It's a clear duality, granted a bit cliche and oversimplified as I present it here, but nonetheless quite true (again, in my personal experience) when it comes to hard budget and wording (or silence) decisions. Especially observable in how these leaders drive their teams, value their respective feedback, and report to their own hierarchy (CEO's, shareholders, people like that).

What this means is that these two profiles have different fears, different demons. Producers fear that the image suffers, notwithstanding the reality of the product; Directors worry that the product just isn't good enough, not necessarily in relation to the actual image it actually has. I don't know how Yoshi resolves this duality as both Producer AND Director. Puzzles me. He certainly doesn't seem fearless nor overconfident, so I suppose he's got this cool-yet-stressed typical Japanese feel (see how often he talks about "player stress" and his constant need to justify his decisions by seeking for "player enjoyment", that says a lot about his personality I think; it seems to me that he feels a bit stuck in-between two worlds).

I don't know how the Final Fantasy Council (don't remember the exact name, that special board SE recently appointed to deal with the IP) factors into all that.

Maybe it's the Japanese way, maybe not, but I see a lot of hesitation and carefulness in how SE communicates these days, not to say fear and doubt. Long gone is the Blizzard-like confidence (borderline arrogance).

I think it was a tremendously good decision to fuse Producer & Director to rebuild the game ASAP and coherently, but now I think this game needs to go back to a standard model, because these are two very different positions, profiles, jobs. There needs to be this dialogue, which can't happen in the mind of a single individual. I think it's too much for a single pair of shoulders, considering the magnitude of both a MMO and FF.

So yeah, fear. I sense a lot of fear. Which is not good in the long run because fear usually either makes you freeze, doubt, or reckless as a manager. Revamping the netcode or not? That's such a huge decision, consequences will be shattering no matter which way ARR goes.

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Originally Posted by Billie21

The only other reason I can see is that they don't know yet if they will be able to fix it. Even then, saying "working on it, not sure it's possible" would most definitely apease at least part of the players, and go a long way in restauring trust in those that have lost it/are losing it, and it wouldn't even bind them to a promise they might not keep.

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I agree. Better temporarily part on good terms with some players who would nevertheless see the game's future in a positive light, than lose players out of frustration because they probably wouldn't ever think of looking back.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

It'd be nice to think the parts you've highlighted are some kind of secret wink at the subject, but even mashing the contexts together like this, I'm not seeing it.

In the first quote, he's talking about development branches and testing things. He mentions server code because, most likely, they only have a handful of test servers running various branches of testing code. If a particular feature or function is coded on the client, it's (comparatively) easy for a developer to change some things, compile a version of the client with just those changes, and see what happens, without having an effect on anything anyone else is working on. If a feature is something that needs to be changed on the server, that change needs to go through more steps, and it's less likely any given developer can just whip something up and try it on the fly.

The part about the need for server improvements was specifically talking about the enormous clustercuss that was open beta/launch, and the scrambling they had to do just to get to the point where everyone could even log in and stay connected. That took so much time and resources that it screwed up their schedule. He's not saying anything about the current state of the servers, just that they were badly broken, and that pushed back all their other plans. And "additional system updates" is so laughably vague, I wouldn't take it to mean anything at all, especially given the way SE publishes & translates changes to their games ("Such and such has been adjusted" - Gee, thanks for the helpful patch notes, guyz). In that sentence, "system" just means "not UI," since he mentioned UI changes specifically, but didn't want it to sound like 2.1 was all UI updates.

I'm sure he is aware of the netcode issues. And I hope he does say something on the subject during the live letter (if not before; you never know!). […] But I really don't think anything he's said in these posts has anything to do with it.

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I don't know. You do make sense, that's objectively true. I guess I'm just fishing for clues, honestly.

When I first skimmed through the posts, I didn't read much into it; their proper meaning is evidently what you describe. Later on, as I was writing something, I remembered the allusions I quoted above; so I came up with this long-shot of an interpretation.

About patch notes: OMG THANK YOU. Think we should send them a note on what these actually look like? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bixby

And subordinate to that hope is the hope that anything he says isn't just more useless victim-blaming (research harder, WARs; zoom out).

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HUH! No brainer, indeed.

After my plea you can imagine how that would just dishearten me—to put it mildly. Perhaps beyond return.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

About patch notes: OMG THANK YOU. Think we should send them a note on what these actually look like? :rolleyes:

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It's a bit late in coming and totally derailing this thread, but this reminded me that I've been meaning to ask about it for every live letter. I'm really just very curious about the reasoning behind it; it doesn't bother me as much as it might seem to.

Regardless, yeah. I really do hope he says something. I'm trying not to be cynical about it. But it's so difficult. I'd rather keep my expectations low and hopefully be pleasantly surprised than expect something and be once again confounded. It's such a weird duality; Yoshi is obviously much more in-touch when he makes the larger posts and the non-live letters, and he seems to "get it" about so many things. But then you get those two statements in particular (research more, zoom out), that are just... mind-bogglingly out of touch. And mind-bogglingly poor form, too.

Signed. I haven't reached end game yet, but Batraal's instant kill AOE kept hitting me when I was a good distance out of the red. You shouldn't have to predict AOEs in order to avoid them. Moving out of the red should be good enough.

@Soukyuu you cancelled your subscription!? Noooooooooo

There is a fairly recent thread that talks and explains about the situation with the 0.3. I would recommend people reading it. The gentlemen explains it pretty thoroughly on how it occurs. Yes it occurs, it does not exist at all times.

We have populations in the community who do suffer from it and don't.

My problem stems from the fact that the nodes on my path to the SE servers are overloaded as they're not used to all this traffic. So those routers are dropping packets and causing lag spikes. I've had my traffic rerouted a couple of times but so far it hasn't worked as I still end up on a path going through an overloaded router. There isn't much SE can do about this other than complain to the providers or put the servers somewhere that actually has a robust infrastructure like most companies.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

There is a fairly recent thread that talks and explains about the situation with the 0.3. I would recommend people reading it. The gentlemen explains it pretty thoroughly on how it occurs. Yes it occurs, it does not exist at all times.

We have populations in the community who do suffer from it and don't.

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You must be talking about this Thread: Why the netcode issue exists, and why it cannot be fixed. :)

Indeed, I recommend people read it too, it's very enlightening!

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

@Soukyuu you cancelled your subscription!? Noooooooooo

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Yeah, it ran out back on the 15th. Something must be done to show them the problem is serious, and losing players explicitly because of this should draw their attention. I'm willing to come back, but they have to make a statement for this to happen. And one not loaded with evasive PR BS.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

There is a fairly recent thread that talks and explains about the situation with the 0.3. I would recommend people reading it. The gentlemen explains it pretty thoroughly on how it occurs. Yes it occurs, it does not exist at all times.

We have populations in the community who do suffer from it and don't.

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That thread originated from this one actually :P

Sorry for double posting but: the actually answered!

From what I understood, they are aware of it and already tested increasing the position check frequency for hard primals and endgame dungeons and it works very well. They are kinda uncertain if it's a good idea to increase it everywhere because of server stress, so they're looking into how to handle that. Hold on for an official translation though.

From my part, it would be fine to have the frequency increased in endgame only for a start, since AoE on lower levels aren't that punishing.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Sorry for double posting but: the actually answered!

From what I understood, they are aware of it and already tested increasing the position check frequency for hard primals and endgame dungeons and it works very well. They are kinda uncertain if it's a good idea to increase it everywhere because of server stress, so they're looking into how to handle that. Hold on for an official translation though.

From my part, it would be fine to have the frequency increased in endgame only for a start, since AoE on lower levels aren't that punishing.

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That's about what I got from Reinheart's translation as well. So glad they addressed it! Seriously makes me happy, and some faith restored. Hopefully what they have planned works out :)

Yeah, I just saw that; they actually talked about it! :D

Which is a VICTORY in itself for these threads!

I can't comment on the solution he talked about obviously, we'll have to see it first-hand, but at least that means they're actually working on this issue. And that is what many players wanted to hear at the very least!

It's reassuring if they say that the increased position check frequency works well though, because that means they see the problem (by comparison). Hopefully, they're on to something!

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

Yeah, I just saw that; they actually talked about it! :D

Which is a VICTORY in itself for these threads!

I can't comment on the solution he talked about obviously, we'll have to see it first-hand, but at least that means they're actually working on this issue. And that is what many players wanted to hear at the very least!

It's reassuring if they say that the increased position check frequency works well though, because that means they see the problem (by comparison). Hopefully, they're on to something!

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Indeed! I went and updated my thread already. Will likely edit again once full translations are up and I'm awake (I'll likely crash after the live letter).

seconding this thread.

to do contents like titan and coil i have to use pingzapper, that helps me avoid packet loss and gives me a direct tunnel for packets from europe (where I live) to canada (SE servers).
pingzapper is 3,99$ each month.

i'm paying more to have a worst service overall.

this problem must be fixed.

i play other MMOs on NA servers, like tera (that is also action oriented), and while tera may be a bad mmo, i don't have any lag issue there even if i play from europe. no problem dodging and parrying at the last moment.

Frabjous freakin' day. It's something! It'd be nice to have more detail on it, but I guess we'll see how it goes with the fix they're talking about. Maybe there'll be a more detailed response in the next week or so.