People abusing party in progress option

Seems like people blowing this way out of proportion. The amount of people who keep withdrawing over and over to try and get a 2/3 is pretty small and doesn't happen often.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Seems like people blowing this way out of proportion. The amount of people who keep withdrawing over and over to try and get a 2/3 is pretty small and doesn't happen often.

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About the only way it affects me is hearing the 'queue pop' sound 20 times in a row on rare occasions. There just isn't very many groups that have their tank mysteriously leave at 2/3, and if people are as clever as they claim, it'd be pretty obvious after you tried at a few times.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

These things really get on my nerves. So if I go out there and I start snatching purses to grandmas is not my fault, right? It was theirs for going alone, obviously.

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How the hell does snatching purses from grandmothers resemble, in any way, joining a queue for an already started group on a video game? (Hint: It doesn't) What an absurdly fallacious comparison. You should be ashamed of trying to pass this off as logical.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

I still see no reason to blame a tank for taking advantage of an option the square enix implemented into the game. Its quite silly to strike at the branches and not the root.

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One thing is to tick the option to join a party in progress and then accepting any group that you get, or just declining it sometimes for whatever reason. But another thing is to purposely use the duty finder to spam the queue, declining all groups until you find one that suits your special tastes (not necessarily on the last boss, and I know what I say here as I know people that do this). That's not taking advantage of anything, but abusing it, specially when some of those same people say that they know that they're annoying other players by doing that. That's what people are complaining about.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

How the hell does snatching purses from grandmothers resemble, in any way, joining a queue for an already started group on a video game? (Hint: It doesn't) What an absurdly fallacious comparison. You should be ashamed of trying to pass this off as logical.

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It was an analogy and it's perfectly valid to explain what I was trying to explain (read the rest of the posts). Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

You really shouldn't care about the opinions of those who generalize off one or even a few people anyways. Just saying ;)

Its also not that anonymous. You can search for this player in game if you're on their server.

I still see no reason to blame a tank for taking advantage of an option the square enix implemented into the game. Its quite silly to strike at the branches and not the root.

Also, if you think the person you're quoting deserves to get their ass kicked for saying something then something is quite wrong with you and not them. That's pretty messed up. Despite the fact that you may disagree with them, its not enough to cause violence to them. Ever.

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Who is generalizing? I was talking to that tank specifically, hence the word "you". And I'm not advocating anyone kick their ass for what they said, but the behavior they are advocating and their attitude about it is not the way a person can behave in real life and expect to get by.

The anonymity I was referring to has nothing to do with being able to find their character again. They said themselves they don't care because the people in their group are random and they will never play with them again. We don't know who this person really is, and can never know (without some illicit illegal activity) without them telling us. That means he is safe to be as douchy as he wants without having his "real" character tarnished. And when I say character I don't mean another character, I mean their character, as in a personality trait.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

One thing is to tick the option to join a party in progress and then accepting any group that you get, or just declining it sometimes for whatever reason.

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Its not abusing it. If the game gives you the option to join a party in progress then you should be able to join a party in progress or be queued until one needs you. The fact that the game puts you into a group you don't want and didn't even request isn't the fault of the player. If they wanted to join a new party then they would have done so from the beginning. We are dealing with paying customers here that can and will get what they want as long as its not a violation of their agreement. If it continues to pop something up that you're not requesting to do then what are you left to do? You try again. No one is purposely trying to spam the queue since no one wants to sit there doing that. What players are doing is declining something the game is simply screwing up on.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Who is generalizing?

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You're misunderstanding me. You told a tank that hes giving tanks bad names. This implies that when someone sees this tank being a douche, then that person judges and generalizes all tanks based off that one douche. To which I said, you shouldn't really care about the opinions of those who generalize like that.

They should be able to. Its not enough to cause violence to them.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

Its not abusing it.

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So because the game lets you, it's not abuse to say, tank a boss in a specific location that trivializes core mechanics? Because I'm pretty sure SE considers things like that abuse, or "exploits".

Just because the game lets you do something does not mean it's ok or intended. Again, there is nothing wrong with backing out of a group because you have to do something else. But intentionally looking for mostly cleared dungeons and REFUSING to tank a fresh dungeon is not intended.

I laughed so hard this morning when in an AK run, after we killed the first boss, our healer goes "way to make that fight take a millinia" to which I replied "if you know a faster way that isn't an exploit, be my guest". They dropped group immediately.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

You're misunderstanding me. You told a tank that hes giving tanks bad names. This implies that when someone sees this tank being a douche, then that person judges and generalizes all tanks based off that one douche. To which I said, you shouldn't really care about the opinions of those who generalize like that.

They should be able to. Its not enough to cause violence to them.

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You are really hung up on that comment about not being able to act like that in real life without getting your ass kicked huh? Judging by your "love-elution" signature I think it's safe to assume you are in the "violence doesn't solve anything" boat. And while I agree POINTLESS violence doesn't solve anything, it is an absolute FACT that throughout the entire history of humanity, more conflicts have been RESOLVED through violence than ANY other medium.

Again, I am NOT saying we should all go kick this guys ass or any other tank that does this. I'm just saying if that is how they act in real life, then yea, eventually someone is gonna smack em, lol.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

So because the game lets you, it's not abuse to say, tank a boss in a specific location that trivializes core mechanics? Because I'm pretty sure SE considers things like abuse, or "exploits".

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When SE comes out and says this specific case is an abuse, then I'll admit you're right. Until then.... they don't compare. If a game allows you to start a party in progress then it should deliver. It sucks that the game does this to players and it should be fixed that gives everyone what they want, like it should be.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

Its not abusing it. If the game gives you the option to join a party in progress then you should be able to join a party in progress or be queued until one needs you. The fact that the game puts you into a group you don't want and didn't even request isn't the fault of the player. If they wanted to join a new party then they would have done so from the beginning. We are dealing with paying customers here that can and will get what they want as long as its not a violation of their agreement. If it continues to pop something up that you're not requesting to do then what are you left to do? You try again. No one is purposely trying to spam the queue since no one wants to sit there doing that. What players are doing is declining something the game is simply screwing up on.

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The option is not there for people that want to join an already started duty, but for those that don't mind or are willing to join one, no matter at what boss they're at. It might seem a small difference, but it's a pretty important one if you think about it, and it's the way it's designed. Like it or hate it, but don't abuse it and annoy everyone else that understands how it works. That's simply what people are asking here.

As with a lot of things, SE is guilty on assuming that players would be willing to help others, but failed miserably with that assumption. That's the only thing that they're at fault on this matter, and not on what people do with the system.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

When SE comes out and says this specific case is an abuse, then I'll admit you're right. Until then.... they don't compare. If a game allows you to start a party in progress then it should deliver. It sucks that the game does this to players and it should be fixed that gives everyone what they want, like it should be.

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You mean like this?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware of the fact that there are some players who will constantly withdraw when you are being matched with players via the Duty Finder. They plan on implementing countermeasures for this to decrease the frequency in which this happens

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Because most people are a bunch of sheeps who need someone else to tell them what is an abuse or isn't.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

The option is not there for people that want to join an already started duty, but for those that don't mind or are willing to join one, no matter at what boss they're at.

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The option is there and no where does it state that its not for players that want to do it.

Your argument that people should have enough sympathy to at least not spam it - I can agree with that and even I have stopped. But they don't have to and shouldn't get blamed for it. The devs should fix it so it works for everyone.

I don't get why people are always saying 'but (official entity) didn't say it's wrong". It's pretty hard to enumerate everything that can possibly be wrong. Even the law, which is supposed to tell you everything that is wrong, cannot possibly write down every possible things you could possibly do that's against the law which is why there's a judicial system to fill in the rest. It's easy to see abusing the Duty Finder is certainly not something that'd add anything to the game. That said the detriment to the game is also very minor as the real effect it has is for some poor guy to hear the 'queue pop' sound 20 times before it actually happens. That said since it's pretty trivial to put in a fix that will greatly reduce this behavior (say, 30 second lockout after declining a Duty Finder), there's really no reason to not do it. I suppose one can argue there are more important things to fix, but since someone from SE actually responded to this, it's clear that for some reason this seems more worthy of attention than the 150 page thread on server lag, so they might as well fix it given we know this is one of the few issues they actually responded on.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

You mean like this?

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They never said it was an abuse, but the fact that people are complaining makes them want to do something about it. Which is a result of how THEY made it.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

The option is there and no where does it state that its not for players that want to do it.

Your argument that people should have enough sympathy to at least not spam it - I can agree with that and even I have stopped. But they don't have to and shouldn't get blamed for it. The devs should fix it so it works for everyone.

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Come on, but you know how it works, you said it yourself. So why complain? It's not a surprise, after all, that if it works like that it might be because they wanted to implement it that way. And if you have any doubts that that's not the way it was intended to be used, just look at what Sephirah quoted up there.

Anyway, it honours you if you have stopped doing this :)

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Come on, but you know how it works, you said it yourself. So why complain? It's not a surprise, after all. And if you have any doubts that that's not the way it was intended to be used, just look at what Sepirah quoted up there.

Anyway, it honours you if you have stopped doing this :)

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I'm definitely aware of the issue and it should definitely be fixed (hopefully for the best) but I'm not going to blame anyone for wanting to do it. I blame the devs for not thinking this out.

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Originally Posted by Hazanko

Care to give us ANY details as what is being fixed or address as far as other "high priority tasks" go? Cause as of lately you guys seem to fail at communicating with the community. (✖╭╮✖)

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They are hard at work judging our doppelganger screenshots! :P

Do you honestly believe adding a penalty to players ((tanks and healers)) who refuse DF before a full group is sent in will solve anything? It wouldn't. It would make the situation worse and you know it.

Tanks and healers would switch to only grouping with FC/LS mates and queue for DF leaving the solo players once again on the forums bitching about the long queue times. SE would present another statement about how they know of the issue and will work on fixing it while saying to themselves that the player-base made this bed and needs to lie in it.

Mountain outta a molehill.

If a tank bails your cue, then the next tank will hit your group.
If the tank that bails never cued at all, then the next tank will hit your group.

Some princess tank that only joins 3/4 runs isnt making your cue take longer. It has no effect whatsoever on your cue time. if they want to join some failed 1/3 group that wiped and waste their time, let them.

SE can and should be working on a laundry list of real issues before wasting their dev time with these fabricated ones.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Mountain outta a molehill.

If a tank bails your cue, then the next tank will hit your group.
If the tank that bails never cued at all, then the next tank will hit your group.

Some princess tank that only joins 3/4 runs isnt making your cue take longer. It has no effect whatsoever on your cue time. if they want to join some failed 1/3 group that wiped and waste their time, let them.

SE can and should be working on a laundry list of real issues before wasting their dev time with these fabricated ones.

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It's a nonissue but since they already responded to this thread, they might as well do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

..snip..

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this. a 1000x. i have burnt myself out with Q's as a DD. now i only enter and farm tomes as a healer and only want to run a join in progress. i could care less if it takes 2 hours to find that sweet spot. i am completely bored with hour long runs and rolling the dice on whether or not im going to get an OMG party. penalizing people that use this feature to its fullest will only reduce the chances of finding replacements. i think this thread should be re-titled 'THANK YOU for joining in progress and not making this like HM fights where when 1 person leaves you have to Q all over again' or something similar. maybe a 'join in progress ONLY' option would be best.

Good solution, which works for both sides would be to allow everyone to que for the job they want to be, and play in the world with another class and auto switch or force switch once they are in the dungeon. Then people wouldn't care because they wont have to stop what they are currently doing and change classes while a tank is spamming DF. You can not blame tanks for being efficient as possible. Everyone knows FATE grinding is cheese, yet everyone does it. Why, because its most efficient.

Personally i don't care either way. I have always been tank class in MMO's and i am one now. I dont have the join in progress checked anymore because the few i did join were problem groups. I dont mind one player being bad or a group of new, but when you pull that once a week group that cant manage to kill the bees for example, you dont want a higher chance of getting them.

The bright side is when you see that tank cheesing the que, you know that you're in the front of the que :)

People are pretty understanding of tanks abusing this system in this thread.

I actually pray that they are trampled to death by a heard of cats.

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

If they just add a third option to only join in progress groups then you will eliminate people trying to force the issue while still providing a service to those that are stuck in progress since we cant stop that.

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It segregates the matching queue even further.

What I would suggest instead is simply to take out the "join in-progress" option and simply dish everyone except first-timers into the in-progress parties first. Only open new dungeons after the in-progress parties are all filled. And also don't display if the one you're joining is in-progress.

This solves two problems: the in-progress gaming problem, and the lack of tanks and healers joining in-progress at lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

The development team is aware of the fact that there are some players who will constantly withdraw when you are being matched with players via the Duty Finder. They plan on implementing countermeasures for this to decrease the frequency in which this happens; however, they will not be able to address this right away as there are other wrapped up with other high priority tasks. On another note regarding this, we do not plan on giving penalties to these players who withdraw when you are getting ready to commence due to the fact that there is a possibility that players who do not have malicious intent could be penalized.

We apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your understanding.

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Total BS. So they screw people over but don't get penalized for it? *slow clap* You are just leaving in an exploit that people can use .. if not that then a damn sure way to get what they want.

Why I REFUSE to use the DF anymore.

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Originally Posted by BlackShroudMercs

Manipulating the system because you feel the need to be lazy should most definitely be a violation.

Its a shame they won't institute lock timers for these people. If you really have to back out of 3 or more different Q's in a row you should probably get offline and settle your business.

"I don't feel like doing the whole thing so I will waste other peoples time until I get what I want."

Awesome ...

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Excuse me, how much time is being wasted? You waited an hour to get into your duty and you are upset about 3 or more 30 second windows? Am I reading this right?

well most annoying thing over all is when you do get duty finder enter dungeon and BOOM tank runs of like kid that just saw candy in distance - or has lower hp than anyone else in party cause some tanks are like "hey i am tank but i gonna act like dps" or doesnt listen to others like happened once we were in Amdapor Keep last boss and I could not dps cause of tank having boss right at the pot where i was out of range so i had to stand basically in aoe to get anything done - medic heals were out also of range cause of it and we asked tank to move a little bit but no, all of us got wiped and yeah basically tank left cause we were "noobs" ..so yeah i don't mind people bailing out of duty finder at times since yeah better to get decent team than getting troll team and wasting time

I have to agree with the need of making it so you get rewards according to the % of the run you were present, with a nice bonus for people staying from beginning to end. Maybe that would motivate people to stop the nonsense, because if some players want want a run 90% done then they should only receive rewards proportional to the 10% of work they did. And players who actually played the entire thing should receive maybe and extra 10-20% bonus as an incentive.

I'm not lvl 50 yet though, but I'm not looking forward to using the DF for higher lvl content if there are stupid issues like this going on. It's already bad enough at lower levels as it is to also have to deal with this crap when I'm lvl50.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Mountain outta a molehill.

If a tank bails your cue, then the next tank will hit your group.
If the tank that bails never cued at all, then the next tank will hit your group.

Some princess tank that only joins 3/4 runs isnt making your cue take longer. It has no effect whatsoever on your cue time. if they want to join some failed 1/3 group that wiped and waste their time, let them.

SE can and should be working on a laundry list of real issues before wasting their dev time with these fabricated ones.

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You're assuming that you only have one party waiting for a tank, and that's never going to happen (at endgame, at least). Simplifying it, if a party gets a tank but he suddendly drops, if there was any other tank ready and waiting to go into a dungeon it will go to another group, not to the first one as they already got one assigned to them. So they have to wait again in queue until another tank appears, because thanks to Mr. Tank#1 they lost the opportunity to get the other one.

A little explanation:

Queue: Party#1, Party#2, ..., Party#N
Tanks available: Tank#1, Tank#2, ..., Tank#M
Numbers are the priority order in their respective queues, where M < N

What happens:
- Assignation: Party#1 + Tank#1, Party#2 + Tank#2, ..., Party#M + Tank#M
- Tank#1 drops
- Party#1 has to wait with parties #M+1 to #N until another tank queues into the DF, as the ones available have been assigned already. And we don't even know if they get moved to the back of the queue too (at least I've not seen the devs clarifying that), in wich case it would be even worse as they would have to wait until parties #M+1 to #N get their tanks.

Note that with dps this is a non issue, but with healers and especially tanks it potentially gets way way worse.

There is no excuses for doing this, or for SE to not dealing with it.

This is also very unfair towards DD's, cause for us it takes ages to find a group using DF, and if I was to withdraw, I would have to wait longer than an actual dungeon run -_-

Just add a percentage based Tome system. If you play through the whole dungeon, you get the same amount of tomes from every boss as you do right now, but if you enter a group in progress you gain tomes based on the amount of the dungeon that is left.

Instead of getting 50 Phil and 30 Myth for only doing the last boss in WP, you would get like 35 Phil and 10 Myth tomes. If you do second and last boss you would get 65 Phil and 20 Myth.... Just an example, but this way you wouldn't really gain anything from joining a group in progress. At the same time though, it wouldn't be bad to enter a group in progress.

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Originally Posted by Neomarl

Why would I have empathy/morality for random people that I don't even know nor care about? As a tank, I will fully take advantage of any situation that can make my life easier, and if it means burning people down to get on top, I will do it without hesitation. Stay mad.

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Because believe it or not, random people that you don't know are still human beings and deserve at least a base amount of respect and civility. This sentiment is probably lost on such a self-centered egocentric person though.

Tank you Kindly. ^_^

- Add a color indicator of Enmity about to be lost. (Ex: Orange = near max. Red = Full Enmity. Black = Have 1k+ Enmity over second place.) Also have it so the second tank isn't a factor for this equation, thus allowing the tank to know if and when Enmity might be pulled off and onto a DPS/healer.

- Make it so Provoke gives you full enmity PLUS 10% of said Enmity and not just +1. The most frequent offset is an ability's animation went off after you provoked, but didn't register enmity until after the provoke popped.

- Give Enmity bars an option to make larger
- Make Enmity bars load faster when switching between enemies.
- Give Enmity Bars locations to be moved. (IE. Move the 4 or 8 Bars under the enemies health bar either by either horizontal or vertical display.)
- Color organize teammates name/health-bar/targeting indicator/Enmity bars as a static option based off the position of my teammates on the list.
- Allow me see my teammates energy bar

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Originally Posted by Zfz

What I would suggest instead is simply to take out the "join in-progress" option and simply dish everyone except first-timers into the in-progress parties first. Only open new dungeons after the in-progress parties are all filled. And also don't display if the one you're joining is in-progress.

This solves two problems: the in-progress gaming problem, and the lack of tanks and healers joining in-progress at lower levels.

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I think I explained why this would not work. People fishing for in progress groups dont care how long it takes to get one. They would just join the instance in this case then leave if it is not where they want to be. You are only making things worse this way.

The only real solution is to give people what they want to avoid causing bigger issues. People who are looking to do 1 or 2 runs per day to max out their points could care less about a 15 min abandonment que if they get placed in a party that has started the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

There is no excuses for doing this, or for SE to not dealing with it.

This is also very unfair towards DD's, cause for us it takes ages to find a group using DF, and if I was to withdraw, I would have to wait longer than an actual dungeon run -_-

Just add a percentage based Tome system. If you play through the whole dungeon, you get the same amount of tomes from every boss as you do right now, but if you enter a group in progress you gain tomes based on the amount of the dungeon that is left.

Instead of getting 50 Phil and 30 Myth for only doing the last boss in WP, you would get like 35 Phil and 10 Myth tomes. If you do second and last boss you would get 65 Phil and 20 Myth.... Just an example, but this way you wouldn't really gain anything from joining a group in progress. At the same time though, it wouldn't be bad to enter a group in progress.

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I would join, kill the current boss you are on then leave. I rather like this idea.
Hope you see the flaw here.

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

I would join, kill the current boss you are on then leave. I rather like this idea.
Hope you see the flaw here.

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Well I'm not the one who should be coming up with the ideas, that's SE's job :) But they could probably implement a system that does something similar, but stops people from doing what you said.

You would get 15min penalty if you leave and you would still get less tomes for the boss then you would if you did the whole dungeon... So I don't think it would be worth it anyways....

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Originally Posted by Astarica

Even when there was an instance reservation time, declining instances still hurts yourself a lot too. Let's say it takes 5 minutes to reserve an instance and 30 minutes to clear WP. Do you really think you'll get a 2/3 WP in 6 tries? I find it hard to believe a tank can get a 2/3 WP in 6 tries given there's really no incentive for a tank to leave at 2/3, so you still end up spending more time than just taking the first available spot. In the end, everyone loses, and the guy trying to cheat the system most likely loses the most because he has to fight all the other guys who are trying to cheat the system too.

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With the instance reservation your thinking is a little off. If you have to wait for "reserving instance" you are clearly not getting an "in progress" group, because those already have an instance. So you would queue - see "reserving instance" - wait a couple seconds just to be sure - leave queue - re-queue - rinse, repeat until desired results are achieved. In the mean time, every group that you are doing this to completely resets their reserving instance timer, and therefore pushes them to the back of reserving instance line. Most of this is a moot point at this time since I think they have fixed most of those issues by making more than one dungeon "viable" for myth tomes and also greatly increasing the amount of space for these two or three dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mairuzu

They never said it was an abuse, but the fact that people are complaining makes them want to do something about it. Which is a result of how THEY made it.

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The store never posted a sign saying no shop lifting, and since noone ever caught me/stopped me, that must make it ok right? It is only wrong when you get caught! (For the record: people out there actually justify their terrible actions with this method, this isn't some pie in the sky example, and it is totally the same thing. You are being jerk and justifying it by saying "the system isn't stopping me from being a jerk, so therefore it must be ok")

I will admit to the fact I've withdrawn a couple times on pops when I'd accidentally requeued for something when queuing for something else. A major way to fix it would be to reset the Duty Finder selection every time the DF pops.

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Originally Posted by Johnist

I will admit to the fact I've withdrawn a couple times on pops when I'd accidentally requeued for something when queuing for something else. A major way to fix it would be to reset the Duty Finder selection every time the DF pops.

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You are not really who this thread is directed at, and would be one of the examples of a "innocent" person eating a penalty. Which is why you need to make the penalty bad enough to stop the bad behavior, but not so bad that innocent people get upset, or ensure that you are only stopping bad behavior and not hurting innocent people.

I really like the idea of removing the "in progress 0/4" or whatever from the display so you don't know how far along they are, and then if you join up and it isn't what you wanted and decide to leave, then you should be eating the same 15 min penalty that anyone else does for leaving a group. Fixes both issues. People will still join in progress to be nice and help out, but will think twice about doing it to try to make their run "faster".

Assuming of course the bug with AK was fixed where it would say 3/4 completed, when there is only 3 bosses in the dungeon... lol