Multiple Classes is a lie

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

You make it sound like this gear is going to be the only thing worth working toward in a year. :rolleyes:

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For some people it is.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

WoW had customizations?

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Hey, what spec is your Warrior in XIV? Oh, the ONLY spec?

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

Hey, what spec is your Warrior in XIV? Oh, the ONLY spec?

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Yeah, and for the longest time in WoW the only spec my Hunter was CC ice trap spec. And then in Cata, I made sure to min max my spec for DPS and didn't deviate from it to make sure I had, the max DPS. Cookie cutter is cookie cutter. Theorycrafters find, test and max the best spec and that's that. I don't understand why someone would gimp themselves from being the most optimal as possible. Don't get me wrong, cookie cutter sucks, but you take a hit for wanting to max what you can. Just like why would someone take a WAR to coils when a PLD is far more efficient.

TLDR: Specs and talents are an illusion of choice.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

TLDR: Specs and talents are an illusion of choice.

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I 100% agree with this. If you want something to even further that point... look at Rift. 9 souls in 1 class... only 1 build worth a damn for each class. You want to be a healer... there is 1 spec. You want to be a tank.. there is 1 spec. You want to be a bard 1 spec. Who cares that their are 9 classes when you only ever use 2-3 of them to make your builds... ever. THAT is how end game works. You are either min/maxing or you are being carried by your group because you want to be a unique snow flake.

Why would people want a higher myth cap for AF2 if we still don't know how we get our AF2? What is if we get it with quests like the AF1?
AF2 is still not ingame. All what we know about AF2 are some pictures from the last live letter.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

You make it sound like this gear is going to be the only thing worth working toward in a year. :rolleyes:

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That's pretty much what most of the people playing the game is doing currently, unless you know that SE will significantly change the game in a year that end-game won't be about gearing?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

That's pretty much what most of the people playing the game is doing currently, unless you know that SE will significantly change the game in a year that end-game won't be about gearing?

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It will be about gearing all the time. And leveling. And seeing the story from coil forward. And crystal tower. and future content. And future jobs. and future classes. and expansions. But throughout all of that, guess what gear you will be forgetting about in 6 months time. The gear that KiriA500 is referring to.

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Originally Posted by TheRac25

including this one if you want to gear multiple roles in any sane amount of time

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This is only because they put ridiculous lock out timers on dungeons and they have amateur loot algorithms with pathetically low success rates. A.K.A. Standard carrot and stick.
FFXIV does the same thing. Same wolf, different clothing.

my drg got 2 allagan pieces today :P , no1 in my Coil party has drg lvled to 50 but me, so all drg gear is mine :D, same goes for other jobs gear , is greeded if u have it at 50 and no 1 in the party needs it

The armory system was a novel idea back in 1.0, until it got overly simplified. Now it's more like a crappier job system than anything.


At least in FFXI, you could use multiple weapons and gear types on different classes, and change up your sub jobs to change (sometimes dramatically) how you play your job. BLU & PUP were shining examples of this, and DRG to a lesser extent with your subjob changing your wyvern's breaths. Plus the way this game is designed, with a base class and then jobs adding a few extra skills onto that, classes like BLU just won't work all that well in this game. I have to wonder if RDM will even be feasible because of this. I have to say, given the choice I'd take FFXI's SCH over this game's anyday. SMN too, sadly...

As much as I love that SMN doesn't suck so bad performance wise in this, the job had a lot more variety and style to it in XI. Just that game's dev team was too chicken **** to give it the buffs it needed to function.

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Originally Posted by TheRac25

including this one if you want to gear multiple roles in any sane amount of time

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It's an MMO. It's supposed to take a long time. It took me two and a half years to hit 75 on FFXI. Never did get full relic on any of the 3 75s I eventually had.

Why people expect end game EQ in this game to not be extremely time consuming I'll never figure out. I hear people say things like "OMG, it's going to take five months to get full DL for each job!" (or however long it is), and all I can think is, "Yeah, so?" It shouldn't be easy. It shouldn't be quick. This is not the instant gratification game, and never will be.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

job specific caps post *snipped*

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No, I'm utilizing my instant AK queues as a Warrior to speed up the Tome farming process for my Monk when my friends aren't around. Forcing a job specific cap would mean i can no longer play my Tank and gear my DPS. That would be terrible.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

No, I'm utilizing my instant AK queues as a Warrior to speed up the Tome farming process for my Monk when my friends aren't around. Forcing a job specific cap would mean i can no longer play my Tank and gear my DPS. That would be terrible.

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InB4: Get your thinking back in the box, you white knight sheep.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

You can. You just can't get the best gear for all of them in a week.

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Actually you can. You make alt characters instead of leveling jobs on a single character.

Besides, no one is asking to max gear in a week. We're asking for the limits to be adjusted so we can put more effort into gearing our characters than possible. More effort = more rewards.

Question for you, what's your opinion on 1.0s fatigue system?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

No, I'm utilizing my instant AK queues as a Warrior to speed up the Tome farming process for my Monk when my friends aren't around. Forcing a job specific cap would mean i can no longer play my Tank and gear my DPS. That would be terrible.

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I'm pretty sure you can't gear Monk in AF1 and it's Relic weapon without being on that job. So yes, there is already precedence in-game where you need to do content on the job you want to gear.

Man I thought I played too much, but people wanting to run AK/WP for more than the allowed 300 cap are nuts. I work full time and cut into sleep to get all the things I want done, did you ever think that maybe this is SE's intention. That they literally don't care about the no-lifers, because why should they? No company wants flak for encouraging a completely unhealthy lifestyle, once one of you drops dead at the computer because you were too busy farming tomes to remember to eat. It's gated on purpose, they actually want you to invest in the job you care about and there is more than adequate gear you can obtain for your alternate classes. Just relax people, no one will be impressed by your gear, trust me.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

I'm pretty sure you can't gear Monk in AF1 and it's Relic weapon without being on that job. So yes, there is already precedence in-game where you need to do content on the job you want to gear.

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Yes, yes you can. Relic weapon, has to be done manually. But the rest.... you can.

PS: I am assuming you are referring to AF+1, as AF1=AF, and if you are unable to obtain that, you have no business gearing up the character at all.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Actually you can. You make alt characters instead of leveling jobs on a single character.

Besides, no one is asking to max gear in a week. We're asking for the limits to be adjusted so we can put more effort into gearing our characters than possible. More effort = more rewards.

Question for you, what's your opinion on 1.0s fatigue system?

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Should have just quoted the whole thing....

You say that no one is asking to max gear, but what some people are asking for grants them the ability to try and max gear ASAP. It may not be a week, but let's not pretend that some people won't do it. Just like they ground CM to the ground for Darklight in a week, or for the more 'hardcore' a couple days. Let's turn down the naivety.

The fatigue system was to slow progression of your character and 'encourage' leveling other classes. That was crap. The game does not halt your progression. Just the top tier gear you can obtain for now. Keywords, for now. Two separate scenarios.

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Originally Posted by TheRac25

people simply want to do on one charactor what they can allready do on multiple charactors, the point being that having to use multiple charactors to do this makes the multi classes per charator a somewhat pointless gimick

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again, you do not need more then one character, the caps are not the issue -.-

You level a class to 50, gear it up, then level another class to 50, gear it up.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Yes, yes you can. Relic weapon, has to be done manually. But the rest.... you can.

PS: I am assuming you are referring to AF+1, as AF1=AF, and if you are unable to obtain that, you have no business gearing up the character at all.

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By AF1 I did mean the original AF. My point when I made that comment was that maybe Job gear should at least be something that you have to earn while being on that job, thus showing your proficiency in the job. The game already doesn't let you Need on gear without being that role in a dungeon so at the least the idea of getting first dibs cause you made the effort to fulfill a role is present. There's other avenues to gear alt jobs equally without being on the job (AK, Coil, eventually CT as well) so it's not like that option is completely taken away from you.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Should have just quoted the whole thing....

You say that no one is asking to max gear, but what some people are asking for grants them the ability to try and max gear ASAP. It may not be a week, but let's not pretend that some people won't do it. Just like they ground CM to the ground for Darklight in a week, or for the more 'hardcore' a couple days. Let's turn down the naivety.

The fatigue system was to slow progression of your character and 'encourage' leveling other classes. That was crap. The game does not halt your progression. Just the top tier gear you can obtain for now. Keywords, for now. Two separate scenarios.

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It's not naivety, I do realize people will no-life to max. So what? These players exist in every single MMO They exist right now with people that have max DL or HQ crafted gear for all jobs, all relics, all crafting classes. Max gear ASAP you say? 5~ months to max Myth on all jobs is ASAP? Especially when you have to put in 9 times the effort? I would say, at least I have a reason to log in. I don't even necessarily agree with how we get Myth gear either. Grinding easy dungeons for job gear equivalent to gear that drops from the hardest content is about as equivalent to grinding fates to level cap.

I do find it funny that you mention that the game doesn't halt your progression and then say that it does the very next sentence. Once you cap your levels, part of character progression is getting better gear, so yes, it does halt progression. We don't know how SE will go about progression in future patches but they have already hinted that it's not going to change. When new gear comes out (the new top tier) older gear will be easier to get... but it's still the same situation that we are at right now.

This entire argument is moot anyway since the Devs officially mentioned they aren't changing anything. People that want to maximize multiple jobs will just level multiple characters.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

By AF1 I did mean the original AF. My point when I made that comment was that maybe Job gear should at least be something that you have to earn while being on that job, thus showing your proficiency in the job. The game already doesn't let you Need on gear without being that role in a dungeon so at the least the idea of getting first dibs cause you made the effort to fulfill a role is present. There's other avenues to gear alt jobs equally without being on the job (AK, Coil, eventually CT as well) so it's not like that option is completely taken away from you.



It's not naivety, I do realize people will no-life to max. So what? These players exist in every single MMO They exist right now with people that have max DL or HQ crafted gear for all jobs, all relics, all crafting classes. Max gear ASAP you say? 5~ months to max Myth on all jobs is ASAP? Especially when you have to put in 9 times the effort? I would say, at least I have a reason to log in. I don't even necessarily agree with how we get Myth gear either. Grinding easy dungeons for job gear equivalent to gear that drops from the hardest content is about as equivalent to grinding fates to level cap.

I do find it funny that you mention that the game doesn't halt your progression and then say that it does the very next sentence. Once you cap your levels, part of character progression is getting better gear, so yes, it does halt progression. We don't know how SE will go about progression in future patches but they have already hinted that it's not going to change. When new gear comes out (the new top tier) older gear will be easier to get... but it's still the same situation that we are at right now.

This entire argument is moot anyway since the Devs officially mentioned they aren't changing anything. People that want to maximize multiple jobs will just level multiple characters.

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The AF gear is secondary. The quests give you job specific abilities. It's really not about the gear. You can FATE grind past the job quests and equip tome farmed gear and go back and do the quests. The gear is handed to you like all of the other quests that give you gear.

The max gear comment is what people want, not how it is now. You are the one who stated that no one wants everything now. Then turn around and say yes these people exist. Honestly, I think 5 months is overkill, but I don't blame SE for putting in some controls.

And you are mistaken in your halting of progression. Fatigue slowed your experience gain. Meaning you can't complete content, you can't xp, you can't level(effectively). You get some xp and it became disgusting and masochistic to level beyond that. Getting more gear to speed your coil run is not progression in the same sense, as you have hit level cap and can still complete current content. You can complete coil without AF2+1relic whatever it is called. The progression you are referring to is two completely different scenarios. I am not even including the AF2 and the coil drops on top of that. Progression beyond coil is on pause until it is released. Even WoW doesn't let you get it all right away.


PS: Perhaps you should make your point clear the first time you quote someone.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

again, you do not need more then one character, the caps are not the issue -.-

You level a class to 50, gear it up, then level another class to 50, gear it up.

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"I literally don't play the game or know/understand the problem people are talking about"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/105442-Coil-lock-outs-myth-tome-caps-and-the-armory-job-system.
Please educate yourself.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

"I literally don't play the game"

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"Because you literally focus on the only part of the game that has this *issue*"

I'm not saying it's not an issue, but you can gear up other classes/Jobs, just it can't be ilvl90 gear ( except for your main class).

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Please educate yourself.

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That quote is really childish ( they way you use it, pulled off in a rude manner), especially when you overuse it.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

The AF gear is secondary. The quests give you job specific abilities. It's really not about the gear. You can FATE grind past the job quests and equip tome farmed gear and go back and do the quests. The gear is handed to you like all of the other quests that give you gear.

The max gear comment is what people want, not how it is now. You are the one who stated that no one wants everything now. Then turn around and say yes these people exist. Honestly, I think 5 months is overkill, but I don't blame SE for putting in some controls.

And you are mistaken in your halting of progression. Fatigue slowed your experience gain. Meaning you can't complete content, you can't xp, you can't level(effectively). You get some xp and it became disgusting and masochistic to level beyond that. Getting more gear to speed your coil run is not progression in the same sense, as you have hit level cap and can still complete current content. You can complete coil without AF2+1relic whatever it is called. The progression you are referring to is two completely different scenarios. I am not even including the AF2 and the coil drops on top of that. Progression beyond coil is on pause until it is released. Even WoW doesn't let you get it all right away.


PS: Perhaps you should make your point clear the first time you quote someone.

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The point was clear enough honestly. There's job gear ingame that you can only attain by completing the content as that specific job. Besides, you're the one that made the assumption that I was referring to AF+1 (or whatever the hell people wanna call it, myth, af2, relic, neon glow af) to begin with.

You still miss the point though concerning gearing multiple jobs with the highest tier so no point going over it again cause you fail to understand people's explanations. That aside, SE made it extremely easy to gear up in DL (and Myth) so it's no surprise people are able to max out.

It's also apparent we have different definitions of what constitutes progression. Gearing is part of progression at endgame. You increase your stats just as you would leveling and your character gets stronger. Using your example, why bother getting DL when content up to Titan can be done in AF? I'm not sure why you even bothered to mention content beyond Coil either.

You know what, I suddenly thought about SE's pricing plans, 1 character or 8 characters per world. Not being able to send stuff directly across characters on the same account, what else would alts be used for. For more quotas of TOM and chances for entering coil!!!! You see, SE was encouraging this all the way from the start.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

I'm pretty sure you can't gear Monk in AF1 and it's Relic weapon without being on that job. So yes, there is already precedence in-game where you need to do content on the job you want to gear.

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Yes, there exists class specific quest lines for class specific gear and skills. And i happen to like those quests, as they teach me something about my class. The Relic line is the same, in a sense. By making me run the content on that specific class, i am proving i have the skills required to play it.

But why should i be forced to prove that i can play my Monk in AK/WP when I'm farming Garuda HM and learning Titan HM?

Even if i had a full ilvl 90 kit waiting for my Scholar when it hits 50, I'll still need to get through the various requirements of my Relic quest on that class. The gear i use to do it is irrelevant. The class requisite is to prove you know how to play that class and deserve the Relic, Gear has nothing to do with it.

The time drawbacks for the majority of players to have job specific caps is astronomical compared to the drawbacks of the current system. I have friends who like to play multiple classes, but often don't have the time to play more than a few hours on the weekend. So under your system, they'd never be able to cap tomes on 2 Jobs, because they don't have the 10 hours a day to cap it both, and imagine if they liked one job of each Role? suddenly, it becomes incredibly difficult to get the things you need due to lack of time in the day to get it done.

As my main class is a Monk, the wait times for dungeons make Tome farming very slow to do on my own. When I'm with friends, its instant queue no matter what class i play.
When I'm alone, i Tank it, and still get the Tomes i need to get gear for the jobs that cant get into dungeons as fast. Under your plan, i'd be forced to wait in the DD queue when i *could* be tanking it for 3 people who only have the 1 non Tank job at 50, and still gearing up the Job that needs the Tomes while picking up off drops no one else needs.

300 a week cap pretty much seals the deal .

Will take a long long time to get full tier2 armor .

But to get it for 2 jobs .. good luck with that :)

lol 2+ years to hit 75 on FFXI...

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Originally Posted by Starlord

"Because you literally focus on the only part of the game that has this *issue*"

I'm not saying it's not an issue, but you can gear up other classes/Jobs, just it can't be ilvl90 gear ( except for your main class).



That quote is really childish ( they way you use it, pulled off in a rude manner), especially when you overuse it.

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I prefer when ignorance is called out.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Actually you can. You make alt characters instead of leveling jobs on a single character.

Besides, no one is asking to max gear in a week. We're asking for the limits to be adjusted so we can put more effort into gearing our characters than possible. More effort = more rewards.

Question for you, what's your opinion on 1.0s fatigue system?

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It was atrocious and one of the worst ideas to ever come to fruition.

inb4 you make asinine comparisons between leveling up and earning the best gear in the game.

Myth cap and coil lock out is literally the fatigue system from 1.0. Why did fatigue exist? To let players who played less catch up to the players who played 24/7, so they made it so if you played sooo much more you gained exp a lot slower, so someone who played less wasn't super far behind. Why does myth tome cap and coil lock outs exist? So that players who don't play a lot can keep up gear-wise with people who play all day and play a lot. It exists to keep casual and hardcore players within equal footing. It's exactly what the fatigue system was.

Please fix the armory system and coil lock outs SE, you are doing nothing but holding your fantastic game back and limiting everyone to playing for less than 3 days per week, forcing us to pay $2 more per month if we want to do coil/gear up multiple jobs, and forcing us to make new characters and ignore your armory system in order to do so. There is no reason for this limitation, it hurts EVERYONE, even casual players are running out of things to do, and I highly doubt the majority of people enjoy spending $13-15/month to be told how often and how much we can play the game per week.

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Except it isn't. Fatigue in 1.0 hurt you as you progressed. In this game, you are only locked out from the best gear that is currently available at the end of the game.

These restrictions will also be eased up as future patches are released. It's here now because this all of our endgame as of patch 2.0.

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Wrong, I'm locked out of playing the game(1 hour of coil on a single job every 7 days yay!) and gearing more than 1 job unless I make multiple characters which lets me bypass this entire artificial barrier.

I would prefer to the fatigue system to this, I leveled right through it and ignored it on every single job and didn't even notice it existed, fatigue was SO much better than coil lock outs and myth tome caps.

The fatigue system may have slowed me down, but it didn't straight up stop me from experiencing or playing the game like the coil lock out system does. It also encouraged me to level up multiple jobs and try out every job, where the myth the tome system does the complete opposite, and unlike the fatigue system that simply slowed down my progress, this myth tome system completely halts my progress until the "fatigue(weekly cap) is reset.

It's the fatigue system, greatly amplified.

So please, tell me which is worse. Being completely locked out of the game and unable to play/experience it(coil), as well as having your character progress COMPLETELY halted, or the fatigue system which simply slowed you down but didn't lock you out of any content and still allowed you to progress.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Myth cap and coil lock out is literally the fatigue system from 1.0. Why did fatigue exist? To let players who played less catch up to the players who played 24/7, so they made it so if you played sooo much more you gained exp a lot slower, so someone who played less wasn't super far behind. Why does myth tome cap and coil lock outs exist? So that players who don't play a lot can keep up gear-wise with people who play all day and play a lot. It exists to keep casual and hardcore players within equal footing. It's exactly what the fatigue system was.

Please fix the armory system and coil lock outs SE, you are doing nothing but holding your fantastic game back and limiting everyone to playing for less than 3 days per week, forcing us to pay $2 more per month if we want to do coil/gear up multiple jobs, and forcing us to make new characters and ignore your armory system in order to do so. There is no reason for this limitation, it hurts EVERYONE, even casual players are running out of things to do, and I highly doubt the majority of people enjoy spending $13-15/month to be told how often and how much we can play the game per week.

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Except it isn't. Fatigue in 1.0 hurt you as you progressed. In this game, you are only locked out from the best gear that is currently available at the end of the game.

These restrictions will also be eased up as future patches are released. It's here now because this is all of our endgame as of patch 2.0.

Oh man, gear. Like the kind I keep getting from AK for all 5 of my other jobs that is quite comparable to DL? And I get tomestones while I'm at it? And I can get Primal weapons that are comparable to Relic? What's that? It takes well over +20 INT/STR to make a 5 damage difference before you even try to use that argument? Willikers!

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Originally Posted by KiriA500

Except it isn't. Fatigue in 1.0 hurt you as you progressed. In this game, you are only locked out from the best gear that is currently available at the end of the game.

These restrictions will also be eased up as future patches are released. It's here now because this is all of our endgame as of patch 2.0.

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100% agreed! I don't agree with the cap implemented, but I understand why it's there. Capping it per class makes it easier sure that's 2700 tomes roughly. However, if they did that from Launch, hardcores would have that completed on or a little bit after 2.1.

The way they have it now, slowed end-game tremendously ( if you plan to do multi-class). The cap will be eased overtime, and eventually non existent. Once more end-game content gets poured in, the more the cap will get higher or unlimited tomes.

I do understand people rage that they want to get all classes end-game gear, but the cap needs to be here for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Your problem is you don't WANT to do it again for another job. It's also stated that you can level multiple jobs, not that you can level multiple jobs AT THE SAME TIME. Gearing up another job will take about equally long as it took for you to gear up your first job. You just can't do it at the same time. In the end in weeks, months or years from now, you can indeed have multiple jobs on the same character, all well geared.

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Yes in months, weeks or years from now we can gear to the spot where we are now; however it is my hope that in months or years from now there is new content and new gear so I won't have to be gearing up to the same point I am now. Of course that new content will require me to get new gear... which mean only one job will remained well gear while I am waiting for several more months and years to get my other classes up to date as new stuff comes out leaving me with only one well done job.... (repeat)

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Originally Posted by Starlord

100% agreed! I don't agree with the cap implemented, but I understand why it's there. Capping it per class makes it easier sure that's 2700 tomes roughly. However, if they did that from Launch, hardcores would have that completed on or a little bit after 2.1.

The way they have it now, slowed end-game tremendously ( if you plan to do multi-class). The cap will be eased overtime, and eventually non existent. Once more end-game content gets poured in, the more the cap will get higher or unlimited tomes.

I do understand people rage that they want to get all classes end-game gear, but the cap needs to be here for the time being.

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From what they have said it seems to me that they will ease up the limits on anything old (so by the time nobody needs relic gear everyone can farm new relic gear all day) but the new end game gear will have the same barriers. Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Oh man, gear. Like the kind I keep getting from AK for all 5 of my other jobs that is quite comparable to DL? And I get tomestones while I'm at it? And I can get Primal weapons that are comparable to Relic? What's that? It takes well over +20 INT/STR to make a 5 damage difference before you even try to use that argument? Willikers!

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If you think Primal Weapons are at parity with Relic (nevermind Relic +1 or Allagan) you're smoking crack.

What's wrong with gearing in Philo Rewards and Relic? Gearing well is perfectly possible without making an alt. Gearing exceptionally well is not, and I'm not sure why people want it beyond turn 4 and 5 of coil. Even then, it's about 1% of the games content and who really cares about turn 4 and 5 until it actually leads us somewhere?

Complaining won't do anything though, either make an alt and suck it down, or wait for 2.1 and gear your other jobs via CT. It's really that simple.

This game really lacks choice. Everyone plays their job exactly like the next slob. The only diversity you get is allocating your small allocation of stat points. Though everyone basically just does the same thing with them.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

And the problem with the 'no gear for alts' complainers in general.
"GIMME MY SHINIES NOW NOW NAO!" *stamps feet*

Can't they just focus on mains and gear alts in DL and AK gear? Nope, gotta be the very best, the best there ever was...

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Amen! Long live mediocrity!!

It's a bit silly, I mean at least in FFXI some of the best gear at endgame wasn't exclusive to any 1 job, and even the stuff that was (like Empyrean Armor/Weapons) wasn't nearly as grindy as some of this stuff is, which is horribly ironic given XI's history.