FATES need a nerf

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Originally Posted by Axlle10

...game NO MATTER HOW they level. well they dont learn their class? yeah, it takes everyone time regardless of level to lear their class. some people are quick and some are ungodly slow * raises both hands* ;D

all in all, all the nerfers points really hold no merit in an MMO. were it a different type of game i could see some merit but then again we would not have this conversation.

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I like you. It's refreshing to hear someone say learning can be fun/challenging...breath of fresh air.

Fates to me are excessively boring...and I'm very slow to level because I work so many things at once. And the fun of a game is leveling/learning to play...etc...Why nerf things when it's fun for people? Sounds like there are a lot of control freaks around here...kinda getting tired of it myself. I'm here to have fun, not have people make me do things their way...We all have our own playstyle...let us use it.

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Originally Posted by Axlle10

since i cant send another post due to stupid forums. in reply to Moontide below, no one is forcing you to spam fates yet you want to force people to run things your way? doesnt seem right to me. everyone enjoys things differently.

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Yes, you can do things your way. The problem here is that those who would enjoy other ways of spending their time will feel like it's unfair for them. Their greater efforts are rewarded much less than what the ones in FATE trains get. I don't think it's healthy to have FATEs so much favor a challenge-less zergy playstyle and certain classes that are better at tagging enemies. This is the reason I want them to be harder and more fair in comparison to other ways to level up. The risk versus reward needs to be comparable to other ways.

And from a personal point of view I like crafting. A style to level up which needs neither gear nor time will diminish the need for crafted gear and consumables at any level before the top. There's simply no demand for it. This is the reason why I'd like to see leveling up be slower in general.

I used fates the entire way to 50 for my second class, and I had no problem with gear.

I did one dungeon or so every 10 levels, and I bought gear with GC tokens, which you get multitudes of when leveling with FATEs.

Everything else is horribly slow, so make those faster, instead of making FATEs slower.

Maybe make dungeons and other things give more seals or gil, if that seems to be an issue.

I don't see how if you don't have at least 1 50, if you haven't done all the quests already, how you can have a valid opinion on this.

A fact we can all agree on is, after you finish all the quests, all you have left for leveling are dungeons, FATEs, grinding, and leves.

Noone (I hope) will say grinding or leves makes you a better player, shows you more story, makes you learn your class, nor do they get you gear.

So that leaves dungeons and FATEs.

Dungeon exp SHOULD be buffed, as it is at least more challenging than FATEs, and requires group coordination and at least makes you know your role somewhat. I don't think anyone would disagree on that.

That leaves the question of how to DO dungeons. As a DPS my queues are 50 minutes long at the beginning of the game, when everyone was queueing. I shudder to think what the queue times are now, esp for non-storyline required dungeons.

So what do you want me to do with my 50 minutes?

The fact is there is not enough content to grind to 50 for more than 1, maybe 2 classes. After that, grind is your only option, and FATEs are by far the best way to do so. Nerfing it accomplishes nothing.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

And from a personal point of view I like crafting. A style to level up which needs neither gear nor time will diminish the need for crafted gear and consumables at any level before the top. There's simply no demand for it. This is the reason why I'd like to see leveling up be slower in general.

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Crafted gear is not bought for more reasons than being "unnecessary". Look at the completely organic methods to MAKE MONEY. As in, what puts gil into the game. When you craft something, you are expecting someone to already have cash to hand over to you. Problem is, noone has any money except for the crafters... because crafting/gathering is the ONLY way to really make money in the game. I get nothing for killing random mobs, FATEs actually DRAIN your money because you are destroying your gear faster than the money rewards can pay to repair it (especially above 45), dungeons also barely give enough gil to pay for the repairs, so where does organic money come into the game? I won't buy stuff simply because it is easier and less work to buy GC gear as you level or make use of the quest reward gear.

FATEs are not the cause of your issues (actually if not for FATEs giving CS, you wouldn't have any option for gearing except for dungeons... which would still not help your "crafting" cause.)

The general argument of pro-FATE people is that it's faster than others which makes it the only viable chance to level up.
The general argument of anti-FATE people is that it's faster than others which makes other options not viable to level up.

A general nerf for FATE would not make it impossible. It would just slow the general pace down. How long it is "appropriate" to take to get your job from 1-50 varies for each person. Some want instant gratification, some would rather work for it so each step of progress actually matters. That's up for SE to decide. Some balancing still NEEDS to be done though because as it stands a lot of other options are invalidated by the sheer XP/hour value.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Nerfing it accomplishes nothing.

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Except people having a bit longer term goals instead of blazing through the content and working a bit harder to try to maximize XP gains and perhaps. Which could mean more meaningful economy regarding gear and consumables. There's the problem of vendors though. And some do like instant gratification and don't want to work for achieving something as hard as others.

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Originally Posted by ChickensEvil

Crafted gear is not bought for more reasons than being "unnecessary". Look at the completely organic methods to MAKE MONEY. As in, what puts gil into the game. When you craft something, you are expecting someone to already have cash to hand over to you. Problem is, noone has any money except for the crafters... because crafting/gathering is the ONLY way to really make money in the game.

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Gathering is the bit that makes money. Crafting is obsolete for the most part due to a) People not needing crafted gear for the most part b) vendor prices are usually a lot cheaper than crafting material from the marketplace c) materia slotting pre-max level is just for novelty. Sure it wouldn't be the be-all end-all solution. Save for endgame most of the money seems to come from materials that crafters actually need to level up.

The economy overall needs balancing and slowing down XP gains wouldn't be the only thing that would give it a boost. In an ideal MMO world money would go from fighters' loot stash -> crafters -> gatherers and material refinement would go from gatherers -> crafters -> fighters. Now vendors make most of crafting obsolete even for that short strip of leveling up. Getting a bit sidetracked now though, apologies.

You keep throwing around the word "instant gratification".

I don't think it means what you think it means.

I played on average 3-5 hours a day, for about a week to cap 1 class to 50 primarily using FATEs.

Took about the same (a bit more, since I wasn't focused on super fast rushing) to do the same using the storyline quest.

How is any of this "instant"?

If it had taken 2 weeks, would I have taken more time to, I don't know, admire the world? Or something? I certainly wouldn't have bought anyone's gear, that argument does not hold as you get TONS of gear from questing in your first job, and if you kept the gear from that leveling a similar job, or did sidequests for your secondary job, you'd have gear regardless.

And that is not including the green/pink gear from dungeons that most people have horded.

This will not affect the "sub 50" economy in any meaningful fashion.

Can we at least agree that this is all "grind"? Past the interesting storyline, past the job quests, this is about pure numbers, simple as that.

And regardless of what it is, people will gravitate towards the most efficient experience. It is grind, grind, grind all the way down.

If you nerf fates, people will just do massive dungeon queues, or massive chain farming, or what have you. And then people will cry for that nerf.

And people will still be doing the same, mindless whatever, because guess what, some people DO want to get to 50 quickly, to play with their friends, test out an alt, what have you.

And making them take longer doesn't really solve any problems or really do anything.

I'm not sure what your goal here is.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I played on average 3-5 hours a day, for about a week to cap 1 class to 50 primarily using FATEs. Took about the same (a bit more, since I wasn't focused on super fast rushing) to do the same using the storyline quest. How is any of this "instant"?

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In comparison to the MMOs of the past that's a blink of an eye. Either way as I said slowing things down is a personal preference. I enjoy the journey rather than the endgame. Hence I'd like it to last longer.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

If you nerf fates, people will just do massive dungeon queues, or massive chain farming, or what have you. And then people will cry for that nerf. And people will still be doing the same, mindless whatever, because guess what, some people DO want to get to 50 quickly, to play with their friends, test out an alt, what have you.

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Yet if the level-up alternatives would be properly balanced they would have a choice. That way no other side would be feeling like their own efforts would go unrewarded in comparison. That was my point first and foremost. More variety that's viable when comparing the alternatives against each other in effort versus reward.

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Originally Posted by Moontide

Yet if the level-up alternatives would be properly balanced they would have a choice. That way no other side would be feeling like their own efforts would go unrewarded in comparison. That was my point first and foremost. More variety that's viable when comparing the alternatives against each other in effort versus reward.

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Okay, sure. But the way to do that is by making exp rates comparable, and also differentiating them enough.

And nerfing fates doesn't do either of that, because leves are still horrendous for, well, everything, dungeon queues are still awful for dps, and also healers post 30 (too many scholars).

Even if I wanted to queue dungeons all day I literally could not, as the queue is about 1.5x as long as the dungeon itself.

So unless someone suggests a solution to make everything else more appealing, I am completely against nerfing FATEs.

Also what I mean by differentiating them is, leves should fill the niche of getting you more gil. I think all leves should provide vastly more gil (on the order of 2-5k per leve at 50), and comparable xp to FATEs at 50 (also make them privy to the "max level" bonus of 50%). So leves should give about 75% of a FATE's xp (so that you still do FATEs when they pop, but your leves are worthless and partying shouldn't be such a huge issue). And leves are autocapped at 6 per day, so you cannot farm them endlessly for gil either, but it provides alternate forms of income (so people will actually buy your crafting stuff!).

Dungeons need trash to drop actual gil, or trash loot at low chance (could be small amounts of tomes, or items on par with the boss drops at a 1% or so chance). Bosses should give XP = a FATE boss of the same level (not a 30 min event FATE).

Fates don't need a nerf. That will screw a lot of us with the goal of having many max level classes on one character. Story and quest aren't enough to level many classes. We need FATEs for that. Nerfing fates will make it into a horrible grind to level additional classes...which the game IS DESIGNED to have on one character and I love that instead of making multiple characters (having many classes).

In my mind, FATEs are just like DLC. They're there if you want to do them, but if you choose not to, you don't have to do it. The Boss FATE are the most enjoyable for me because 1. Everyone get to participate in some capacity, whereas in the normal ones sometimes it's hard to even find and strike a target before it's dead. To say nothing of Healers in that regard. 2. They promote teamwork, and provide practice for Dungeons. the normal ones do this to an extent but since there are so many more PCs/enemies it can get chaotic. 3. I think they have the best 'story reasons' for being there. A single powerful enemy has appeared to wreak havoc however they will, and it's up to heroes(that's us) to stop them.
Gaming is not a race. Leveling is not a race. No one wins ALL the things for hitting level 50 first, second or 87,452th. If all you're concerned about if getting to 50 as fast as you can, where's the fun? The adventure? The thrill?