SE stop doing the "norm"

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Originally Posted by fusional

actually, the first thing any marketing researcher worth their salt learns is that the things any particular demographic CLAIM they want are not always the things they ACTUALLY want. ie: no matter how much people CLAIM they don't like the status quo, WoW dominates. and no matter how much people CLAIM they don't like the status quo, titles doing things differently (tera's combat, xi's open world NMs, etc) either flop outright or only appeal to a very tiny segment.

you can't just take what the layman says at face value, because they often don't actually know what they want. they only think they do... until they're presented with new/different choices.

in marketing, to get the answers and data you seek... you must first ask the right questions. and since all we have so far is a mountain of evidence contradicting everything people SAY they want... it's clear the right questions aren't being asked.

until that happens, companies just won't be able to provide the solutions/products people don't even realize they're looking for... and the cycle continues.

(and as a side note, i should mention most of those forums you listed are filled with the kind of gamer that CLAIMED guild wars 2 will be the savior of MMOs, a true revolutionary, and that every other MMO should follow in its footsteps and be f2p and the like........................... only to stop playing gw2 after a couple weeks. hard to take that terribly seriously as reliable data)

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Regardless, there is still a unanimous voice claiming to want something better than WoW. Even if the people claiming to want this don't know what they want, they certainly still claim it all the same. Copying WoW will result in people being inclined to say "nothing new to see here, move on people" before even trying it in that case.

There are a lot of nuances involved in the failure of MMOs, and the success of WoW, and copying WoW will not ensure victory. Any market researcher worth their salt should knows that. There are enough recently deceased MMOs which learnt that lesson the hard way.

TERA didn't lose subscribers because of its combat, either. Nor did FFXI lose subscribers because of open-world content. It doesn't take a lot to realise there were flaws with TERA that drove people away from that game despite its combat-system which alot of people praised and enjoyed.

Looking at why certain games failed despite their achievements (rather than because of their achievements) would provide a better recipe for success than taking the simplistic approach that WoW has the most subscribers, therefore we must copy everything WoW does even its flaws.

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

Regardless, there is still a unanimous voice claiming to want something better than WoW. Even if the people claiming to want this don't know what they want, they certainly still claim it all the same. Copying WoW will result in people being inclined to say "nothing new to see here, move on people" before even trying it in that case.

There are a lot of nuances involved in the failure of MMOs, and the success of WoW, and copying WoW will not ensure victory. Any market researcher worth their salt should knows that. There are enough recently deceased MMOs which learnt that lesson the hard way.

TERA didn't lose subscribers because of its combat, either. Nor did FFXI lose subscribers because of open-world content. It doesn't take a lot to realise there were flaws with TERA that drove people away from that game despite its combat-system which alot of people praised and enjoyed.

Looking at why certain games failed despite their achievements (rather than because of their achievements) would provide a better recipe for success than taking the simplistic approach that WoW has the most subscribers, therefore we must copy everything WoW does even its flaws.

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Exactly, who's going to bother with the same game in another coat of paint? Especially with monthly fees. People may not be clamoring for the MMO's that try to flip the battle system, but it's even worse for the copycats.

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate marketing researchers. With all of my heart.
Do they honestly think I'm lying about my opinion? Like I'm some sort of idiot? Like I'm a stupid child or something? Do they just overlook the failings of other things beyond "Not enough like X!". Yeah. It couldn't be the fact that those other products failed in some other stronger aspect that you could take advantage of, no sir, it has to quietly blend into the mass of mimics! That's how we'll get people interested!

I spit at the very thought.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...9/WhoopsNo.gif

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

Looking at why certain games failed despite their achievements (rather than because of their achievements) would provide a better recipe for success than taking the simplistic approach that WoW has the most subscribers, therefore we must copy everything WoW does even its flaws.

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first, flaws are apparently highly subjective in this case because whatever flaws drove around 2 million subscribers away from the game still kept around 9 million.

second, if you think ARR is copying "everything WoW does" this conversation is over with, because i can't even begin to take you seriously anymore.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate marketing researchers. With all of my heart.
Do they honestly think I'm lying about my opinion? Like I'm some sort of idiot? Like I'm a stupid child or something?

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no, they just think you don't really know what you want until you're actually presented with the exact product you want. and you probably don't know the exact product you want because it either doesn't exist or you weren't asked the right questions. (or you were misled, ie: gw2 marketing campaign)

http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gla...tti_sauce.html

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Originally Posted by CSLionheart

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...9/WhoopsNo.gif

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And just where do you think you're going?

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Originally Posted by fusional

if you think ARR is copying "everything WoW does" this conversation is over with, because i can't even begin to take you seriously anymore.

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Oh, it's not about what he thinks exactly, it's about what the populous sees for 2.0.
Will it really seem like anything different from the base standard? Enough to keep people attached or even interested?

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Exactly, who's going to bother with the same game in another coat of paint? .

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It's not even a new coat of paint either.

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Originally Posted by fusional

first, flaws are apparently highly subjective in this case because whatever flaws drove around 2 million subscribers away from the game still kept around 9 million.

second, if you think ARR is copying "everything WoW does" this conversation is over with, because i can't even begin to take you seriously anymore.

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"Everything" was an overstatement, sure, and I agree with you on a lot of your original points, to be fair, but at the same time a simplistic approach where devs are set up to chase the $$ signs can leave market researchers blind to the real reason something fails, and whether WoW just succeeds by default. You need to listen to why people don't like something, and what they would like instead of those things they say they dont want, and this eventually forms an iterative process where games are developed to match a target audience.

Who is SE targeting with generic quest-spam progression and carrot-on-a-stick endgame? I don't even know if that audience exists, to be frank.

Here is a quote on a new and unfair FFXIV article over at www.mmorpg.com

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for those of us that are MMO fans in general and not necessarily Final Fantasy fans the likelihood that we will pick tihs game up now is not very big. Our imaginations have moved on. Their chance to hook us was at that first release 2 years ago. I was even interested in it back then - could play it due to hardware issues - but now, I am not so much interested. It just feels like old news - nothing groundbreaking - just stuff that probably allready works well tied into a bit more modern engine.
While there is nothing wrong with that - there is also not a whole lot to draw in the large crowds - at least in the north american market. Now if the game turns out to actually be really good and do things just perfectly right - that could change and get the Non FF crowds interest again.

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This kind of sums up SE's problems. It's doing nothing "groundbreaking", it's doing nothing even remotely interesting, and so nobody even looks at it twice. They've already looked at it once, and didn't like it much. No market research is needed to tell you SE needs to evolve the so-called standard, rather than just re-implement it.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Oh, it's not about what he thinks exactly, it's about what the populous sees for 2.0.
Will it really seem like anything different from the base standard? Enough to keep people attached or even interested?

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then the populous either never played WoW or are overreacting based on an in irrational internalized bias. i raided in WoW for years and nothing i've seen in the concept art, screenshots, videos, live letters or any other media has even begun to strike me as overly similar to a game i'm deeply familiar with. there are a few passing similarities, but nearly every MMO suffers from that- and it's not because they're copying WoW (as many of these elements existed before WoW), it's because they're borrowing from a set of ideas that have worked for multiple games.

most of the arguments against ARR "copying" WoW use logic like "well Borderlands uses guns and Halo uses guns therefore Borderlands is copying Halo", and it's patently ridiculous. it's just an exaggerated knee-jerk reaction based on the simple fact that WoW was referenced in the first place.

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Originally Posted by auritribe

Square Enix could take maple story, resprite it with FF artwork, put final fantasy on the cover and it'd still sell.

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Yeah, they can do anything and it will still be a success! ...wait, why are they remaking FFXIV again?

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Originally Posted by fusional

no, they just think you don't really know what you want until you're actually presented with the exact product you want. and you probably don't know the exact product you want because it either doesn't exist or you weren't asked the right questions. (or you were misled, ie: gw2 marketing campaign)

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They think wrong. And that line of reasoning still does not cover the continual mistake of copying to gain interest. Like I said earlier:

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who's going to bother with the same game in another coat of paint? Especially with monthly fees. People may not be clamoring for the MMO's that try to flip the battle system, but it's even worse for the copycats.

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Originally Posted by fusional

there are a few passing similarities, but nearly every MMO suffers from that- and it's not because they're copying WoW (as many of these elements existed before WoW), it's because they're borrowing from a set of ideas that have worked for multiple games.

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And this is the problem.

There's NOTHING new or interesting about 2.0.