[Thought Experiment] Is Dawntrail's 7.0 MSQ Planned to be "Terrible"?

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I personally never felt FFXIV had a *very* deep and exhaustive approach to characters traits in general, they just kind of serve their narrative purpose. I think it doubles as a practical tool for writing characters and stories which can resonate differently with each player. I don't find Calyx is a great villain in my opinion, but I've read a lot of admiration for the character on this forum and it's very interesting to read what people read in him that I don't.

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This is gonna sound weird, but the big thing giving me hope for the future is seeing Calyx be really divisive.

I don't know what exactly the recipe is for a beloved villain in this game, or if there even necessarily is one (except for 'pretty, sad, male', but you can't JUST fill the cast with pretty sad men) but if I've learned anything from seeing audience responses to Emet, Fandaniel, and to a lesser degree Elidibus, it's that it's a good sign when some people are reflexively responding to your villain with 'oh god I hate this guy so much'; it means that the thing you're cooking is strong enough to get responses. I can't even trust universal adulation as much as I trust a sign like this.


Also, for fun: if I'm gonna point at a character in FFXIV and say that I think they seem autistic... well, first I have to exclude anyone from Sharlayan because that's a society that values and encourages that sort of behavior, so it's actually kinda difficult to take that lens to, say, Y'shtola. Outside of Sharlayan, I'm actually gonna say Zenos: that is ABSOLUTELY someone undiagnosed, with NO coping or masking mechanisms, and only recently figured out what a hyperfixation is. (And, comparing to Calyx: we also know Zenos isn't putting on a front, we've seen him in private, he's just Like That.)

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, for fun: if I'm gonna point at a character in FFXIV and say that I think they seem autistic... well, first I have to exclude anyone from Sharlayan because that's a society that values and encourages that sort of behavior, so it's actually kinda difficult to take that lens to, say, Y'shtola. Outside of Sharlayan, I'm actually gonna say Zenos: that is ABSOLUTELY someone undiagnosed, with NO coping or masking mechanisms, and only recently figured out what a hyperfixation is. (And, comparing to Calyx: we also know Zenos isn't putting on a front, we've seen him in private, he's just Like That.)

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Reading your reply about the villains, I was thinking about Zenos before I got to the part where you mention him lol. But the hyperfixation gets blended in the lack of morality and the egocentrism.

I think we both agree, I'm not among the population swooning about Emet Selch for instance. "I commited genocides and I'll do it again, but it's because I miss my fwends" is not what I would call nuanced (I'm exagerating, obviously).

Back to Calyx, I just think I have not seen enough of him to have a proper opinion. Him having a cold and c a l c u l a t i n g front and an angry reaction when he is alone doesn't do much for me though, in a sense he makes me think of Asahi to some extent. But just like I surely didn't think the same about Fandaniel in 5.X and post 6.0, I imagine his development will help give him more depth.

While I am perfectly content to believe that the pacing issues and narrative problems in DT's MSQ and patches 7.1 through 7.2 were deliberate decisions, that doesn't mean they were good decisions, or done in service of making 7.0 weaker on purpose.

Rather, it was a consequence of the writing process not taking into account the development cycle enough from the start.

I think they ran out of time for what they wanted to do in the core DT story. Base 7.0 was too long and they could not fit the whole story into the allotted development time. They had to cut scope someplace.

- Early on in the scope trimming, they shoved the final resolution of Mamook over to the Society quests. I was okay with this one. I think this was the right decision. Not a good one, but of all the content to cut, this made the most sense.
- 7.1 MSQ was too thin narratively already. So they chose to move Koana's character closure from base MSQ patch to patch 7.1. I noticed this big hole in the story in base 7.0 and surmised that's what they did. This one was a bad decision, I think, and did Koana a disservice. (He could have come with the WoL and Erenville during the 7.0 Shaaloni arc, since the city wasn't yet under attack.)
- 7.2 was too big narratively, but also too thin on actual gameplay, so they padded it out with weaker gameplay stuff that was kind of wasteful like yet another city tour. Sigh.
- And to cut narrative, they shoves some of 7.2 cutscenes and character development to 7.3 . Patrolling with Geode should have been in 7.2. This made the MSQ for 7.3 last 4-5 hours for people who didn't skip cutscenes.

I think the reasons that 5.0-5.3 and base 6.0 landed better with the fan base in terms of writing quality is because if there were bits that were rearranged in the narrative, it wasn't as blatantly obvious. It was better planned out from the start.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

- And to cut narrative, they shoves some of 7.2 cutscenes and character development to 7.3 . Patrolling with Geode should have been in 7.2. This made the MSQ for 7.3 last 4-5 hours for people who didn't skip cutscenes.

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I feel this so hard. As soon as we went out to hang out with Geode and he started expositing about his backstory, both my wife and I were like "welp, he's about to die". He needed development before this patch if they wanted us to care about him.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I think the reasons that 5.0-5.3 and base 6.0 landed better with the fan base in terms of writing quality is because if there were bits that were rearranged in the narrative, it wasn't as blatantly obvious. It was better planned out from the start.

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Honestly, I think early 5.x was REALLY badly-paced. 5.1 is aggressively 'nothing' as a story in and of itself, 5.2 was uniquely probably the single worst patch that could've been live for the start of the pandemic for how heavily it relied on plot threads that it could neither resolve nor itself make all that meaty, and 5.3 is basically crammed full of as much story as they physically could've fit in the thing. Realistically I'd argue that if you really wanted to tighten up that storyline, the entirety of 5.1 could've been cut down to being maybe two quests used to set up Beq Lugg and some sidequests to handle Eulmore's side, with 5.1 instead mostly covering either the Anamnesis or Ardbert-Lidibus (including what's currently the 5.3 solo duty), with 5.2 mostly covering the other, and 5.3 basically going full-force into the Heroes' Gauntlet/Seat of Sacrifice part of it.

But the thing is, the playerbase just never really... cared that much about individual patch MSQ quality until very recently, except for 5.3. I've asked around, and outside of 5.3 nobody can actually name any exceptionally good or bad patches (outside of 2.55 but that's for kinda obvious reasons), I suspect because nobody was really thinking about that, or at least didn't care about it for long. Chances are 5.3 was an exception not because it was really good, but because of the time it released; being the first patch after the pandemic kicked in meant people were really holding out for it and looking for it specifically as a landmark moment.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

... [T]he playerbase just never really... cared that much about individual patch MSQ quality until very recently, except for 5.3. I've asked around, and outside of 5.3 nobody can actually name any exceptionally good or bad patches (outside of 2.55 but that's for kinda obvious reasons), I suspect because nobody was really thinking about that, or at least didn't care about it for long. Chances are 5.3 was an exception not because it was really good, but because of the time it released; being the first patch after the pandemic kicked in meant people were really holding out for it and looking for it specifically as a landmark moment.

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If you played through it as it was released, patch stories follow a pretty typical formula just like dungeons:

X.1 focuses on political fallout and sets up the upcoming "true" climax ("aggressively nothing" is the name of the game).
X.2 sets up the confrontation with the "true" Final Boss.
X.3 is the story's true climax and Final Boss fight.
X.4 politically sets up X+1.
X.5(.5) gives us the impetus for heading in to X+1.

Depending on the expansion, the EX tuning of the MSQ final boss is released at some point in the patches, though X.3 is always the "true" final boss.

As someone who's played for a bit longer, I can say this:

1. A Realm Reborn: the game was new, so to speak, and while 2.0's story wasn't anywhere near as good as contemporary stuff it is still head and shoulders above most anything the competition is doing even today. 2.1 - 2.3 were filler conflicts with random Beast Tribes and their Primals (Ramuh didn't even have a model until 2.3), with the stinger of 2.3 starting up the cycle. The Crystal Braves plot was intriguing, though the post-mortem conclusion was incredibly dissatisfying (because they didn't know what to do with it and it was just filler for getting Heavensward ready).
2. Heavensward: political fallout boring, but the climactic confrontation with Nidhogg was hype. Setup for Stormblood wasn't the best because it still left people unsympathetic to the Ala Mhigans.
3. Stormblood: political fallout boring, and people were not happy about Ala Mhigo's denouement being rushed after the pacing issues Stormblood already had. However, Yotsuyu's arc was very well received and Emet-Selch hinting at some answers after years of cryptic nothings from the Ascians, combined with his melodramatic antics, made almost everyone happy.

What you're describing, and what we got from Dawntrail in terms of structure, is pretty typical. I do think there's a bit of bias in Shadowbringers's favor because a lot of people came over due to the pandemic and WoW: Battle for Azeroth being lackluster in comparison, but anyway.

Square needs to do more showing than telling. and allow the player to play the game.


give more solo and role play instances how does this sound

so we get to the Golden City we have to stop sphene from causing another rejoining or whatever she was doing, as soon as we get there we storm the meso terminal; solo gameplay instance we go in we do a fight and barely get out, in that it is conveyed during gameplay during the action, that brute forcing it as we rightly can do it won't work, so then we do the run around with the dead people the original story did not show this and it causes a disconnect again the WOL has defeated the despair death of the universe defeating sphene in a virtual world should be child's play for them.

more recent

Geode got killed off pretty stupidly surrounded by glitchy robots with 3 paths to run away he sits there and say "take care of everyone" ok my guy guess you just wanted to die
wouldn't it have been nice to play a roleplay instance as him maybe make it to where he only has limited shots but they are strong and we are trying to help people escape if too many people get terminated we fail the instance but after saving enough we have to escape after that if you lose it gives you a he's coke instantly or if you survive it gives you a nod that you won but he's still coke? players would have enjoyed that instead of a goofy CS where he stands there and gets ganked.

or

The new boss we fought was supposed to be immortal but we only Faught it once should have been a solo instance fighting a weaker version of it, once we defeat it we get the CS where he gloats that it respawns infinitely and that it is using aether from the 9th (or wherever the meso terminal is) so we are basically now fighting a star that's potentially a far greater threat than Metion so we get over powered and then the WOL uses the crystal boom trial we defeat him again and in a CS he respawns and now we get the sphene morale speech and so the scions can defeat it while Wuk Lmao and the WOL try to stop Calyx hell he should have had 2 shields and we have an instance where we have to burst dps the shield down while avoiding aoes and we see Wuk face tanking the hits to protect us that would have been kool that would have made me respect Wuk Lmao far better than her bleeding from the hands after striking the shield over and over.

in the end it's an MMO not a movie some peps say it was a 3hr msq before the dungeon and yeah it was full of filler and most of it was not voiced if you want people to watch a movie at least have voice acting....

The 4-5 hr msq would have been better as a 2-3 hr action packed thriller.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

give more solo and role play instances how does this sound

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In your examples? Bad. You're basically throwing away the entire medium of cutscenes for storytelling here, insisting that solo instances must inherently be better, but they're really not, and you've picked two examples where the cutscenes carry a goddamn MOUNTAIN of weight.

Geode's death scene was great, in part because it really nails a GREAT horror vibe that the gameplay itself has never quite managed; the glitching sentries are amazing for that. But also because, within that scene, Geode does nothing wrong. He's outgunned and outmaneuvered, but he does his absolute best, and takes out as many as he reasonably ever could've, while really heightening the threat of both the sentries he's fighting (that we can scrap without too much trouble), and Calyx as the guy orchestrating this. Replacing it with a solo instance revokes the entire energy of that scene, instead replacing it with a gameplay sequence that cannot convey the same energy, and is actually way too complicated for something we're forced to lose. It evokes maybe people's least favorite solo duty, the first fight against Zenos in Stormblood; why bother going through all the rigamarole of the duty, when the end result of 'winning' is that we lose anyway?

And making the post-Necron fight a pair of solo duties would literally be a waste of time and development effort. You already know how Necron fights, you beat Necron three minutes ago! This is the absolute perfect time to do a combat sequence via cutscene, because it fast-forwards past a fight you've already done; you already know what this part looks and plays like, we don't need to repeat it. And Wuk Lamat's sequence, when you boil it down to 'combat elements and requirements in the game we're playing', is just her constantly hitting a stationary wall! In gameplay that would be the single dullest combat sequence in the entire game, but in cutscene form they really sell that by making every single hit really count. Plus, it's followed up by showing the WoL actually using the combat techniques of their job in cool cutscene form, which people have been asking for for years.

And both of these are very specifically cases of 'showing not telling', we see these events in considerable detail, so I suspect you don't actually know what that term means!

There are places where solo duties do work that a cutscene either literally can't, or wouldn't be able to do as well, but these two examples aren't that. Fortunately, I don't have to walk far to find a good example, because the lab investigation is a perfect use of a solo gameplay sequence; having us actually walk around the space, learn stuff first-hand and solve puzzles gives us personal involvement in a sequence that, in this game, is otherwise traditionally left to the medium of 'text-heavy infodump cutscenes full of stock animations, probably right after a dungeon where you only kinda saw those things in the background'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

In your examples? Bad. You're basically throwing away the entire medium of cutscenes for storytelling here, insisting that solo instances must inherently be better, but they're really not, and you've picked two examples where the cutscenes carry a goddamn MOUNTAIN of weight.

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Not asking them to get rid of cutscenes I'm asking them to let me play the game. Again Cleretic it is a video game that we pay monthly to play that we also payed 50+ usd to get the xpack for and it is an RPG not a VN or a movie.

1st off Geode's death was pretty stupid he happens to be the only mch that runs out of ammo and throws his only means of self defense.... a normal person surrounded by 3 to 4 stationary killer robots would have seen 3 exits to try and run though, yeah their movements was pretty creepy I'll give you that it was a terrifying to see, but it was also pretty stupid that he just stood there saying "oh I guess it is my time" it would have been nice to roleplay as Geode do everything right and still see that he got captured instead of playing as our chara and scanning sparklely areas in the S9 player hub uselessly while he was getting turned into a bottled water and saving citizens that we NEVER SEE in the MSQ.

in the CS after the fact they told us he saved a lot of people so he is a hero that we should miss... sounds like tell don't show.

"And making the post-Necron fight a pair of solo duties would literally be a waste of time and development effort. You already know how Necron fights"
I was asking for a pre necron fight, SHOW US that the "immortal" concept will keep getting stronger, will keep getting up after the weaker solo instance we have the trial of him powered up then the more powered up version is fought by the scions in the CS where the scions are doing reused player animations. After that have a timed instance that shows why Wuk is bleeding from the hands you give them this development excuse but it just comes across to me as excusing laziness.

Idk about you but I remember when we played as Alphino in the burn, when we played as Hien in gymlet, as Estnian in garlemeld and when played as thancred in SHB and EW and as the were forced to be a garlean soldier in EW it conveyed story through gameplay and it was good so good ; n ;
the story telling was not just me sitting there watching it was me feeling that I could die as thacred or me rooting for those garleans or fearing for hien that is quality story.

As paying customers that is our right to to ask for improvement or maintained quality and you see it happening with the fall off that they are experiencing with the MMO. If you drop in quality that means less people will be buying... that is not healthy for 14, people dropping their subs and finding other games..


I ask them to Convey the "MOUNTAIN" of info that they pack these unvoiced cuteness with into something interactive. I am playing an mmo, I am not watching a movie or reading a book.

in end having so much unvoiced hands off info is poor communication which is poor quality BAD.

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Originally Posted by Kahnha

Not asking them to get rid of cutscenes I'm asking them to let me play the game. Again Cleretic it is a video game that we pay monthly to play that we also payed 50+ usd to get the xpack for and it is an RPG not a VN or a movie.

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I don't get why Squeenix is so averse to actual gameplay these days. Does anyone think FFIV or FFV or FFVI would be the beloved classics they are if they'd had this same ratio of cutscene to gameplay?