8.0 DPS Job Rework Workshop/Megathread. Goals, Design Principles, and Mock-Ups.

Or even return Mutilate and Shadowfang on one of said combos...

Or is the community still on a hate-binge for DoTs (per which the concept itself is inseparable from any dated intuitiveness of XIV UI in general -- including effect caps and lack of any decent effect display filtering) that may hold it back presently)?

I suspect that if they could give healers, and mages ranged auto attacks, would further incentivize them to remove more dots. Or at the very least, replace dots with abilities like BLM's Wreath of Fire from PVP.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I suspect that if they could give healers, and mages ranged auto attacks, would further incentivize them to remove more dots. Or at the very least, replace dots with abilities like BLM's Wreath of Fire from PVP.

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Hrm this makes me think I'd prefer if the game (and it's near-absolute lack of combat depth despite the 20+ buttons on each class) were more... honest?

Like, have an actual "autoattack". A skill that automatically casts/hits if you're not doing something else. Paladins for example would have a 6-hit combo, their current 1-2-3 and then the Atonement chain. Black Mages would auto-cast Blizzard IV in ice and Fire IV in fire. Etc.

Would that be weird as hell? Of course. But in a lot of ways, that just saves our fingers from more RSI, we do that with no more brain activity than an autoattack button would. We do exactly that, basically. Might as well make it more obvious how non-interactive these fillers are, no?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Hrm this makes me think I'd prefer if the game (and it's near-absolute lack of combat depth despite the 20+ buttons on each class) were more... honest?

Like, have an actual "autoattack". A skill that automatically casts/hits if you're not doing something else. Paladins for example would have a 6-hit combo, their current 1-2-3 and then the Atonement chain. Black Mages would auto-cast Blizzard IV in ice and Fire IV in fire. Etc.

Would that be weird as hell? Of course. But in a lot of ways, that just saves our fingers from more RSI, we do that with no more brain activity than an autoattack button would. We do exactly that, basically. Might as well make it more obvious how non-interactive these fillers are, no?

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In my mind, more specifically healer dots are used as a substitution for auto attacks. So to me, there is very little mechanical difference between a dot, and auto attacks with the only major difference is that dots can deal damage to enemies you are not actively targeting. And this is a reason why I roll my eyes at maintenance mechanics because of how comparable they are to auto attacks. They're so passive. I'm also just spoiled by Blue Mage dots where their potencies are so high that you can actually notice them ripping enemies to shreds. But again, you can just move the little sticker from the boss to the player, and have it like quadruple the potency of auto attacks, and achieve similar results.

They're almost the opposite of auto-attacks, though? A DoT is a snapshotted high-ppgcd attack with strength per use diminished if used too frequently and total contribution finished if used too infrequently -- essentially a soft-CD attack. Except, also, whereas AAs can only strike one enemy at a time and traditional CDs cool only one charge per action, DoTs can be present and can cool on as many enemies as they are placed.

And then there's the remaining target lifespan (TTK, time-to/until-kill) consideration, too...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They're almost the opposite of auto-attacks, though? A DoT is a snapshotted high-ppgcd attack with strength per use diminished if used too frequently and total contribution finished if used too infrequently -- essentially a soft-CD attack. Except, also, whereas AAs can only strike one enemy at a time and traditional CDs cool only one charge per action, DoTs can be present and can cool on as many enemies as they are placed.

And then there's the remaining target lifespan (TTK, time-to/until-kill) consideration, too...

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Oh yeah, forgot about snapshotting. Oops. But then dots are just another skill to use when buffs are up be they personal or party buffs. The decision making between like current Goring Blade, and Sonic Break are basically the same other than maybe using Sonic Break early in No Mercy. And to be honest, I feel like dots encourage padding which I don't find interesting at all, whereas burst damage is better at like, I don't know, killing stuff. Which given that it seems like they want fights to be faster, maybe seems it should be a little more important.

While I'm not super keen on dots, I do think there is more room for debuff based mechanics that ask players to pay attention to what's happening on an enemy's debuff list, especially if they keep teasing chemist.

Yes, the difference between a 30s DoT and a 30s cooldown DD attack in gameplay are essentially just:

* The former gives you extra movement/mechanics resistance (as the DoT continues to tick while you move, this is important for casters).
* The former can be re-cast early, but this produces no extra damage. But might sometimes be useful depending on the upcoming few seocnds.
* The latter can burst more, sometimes important depending on the fight.

I kinda feel there'd be room for at least 1 DoT-centric job though, 4-5 stackable DoTs of various lengths, then the filler spam attack is one that drains X seconds off the DoTs current on the target, dealing their damage instantly.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yes, the difference between a 30s DoT and a 30s cooldown DD attack in gameplay are essentially just:

* The former gives you extra movement/mechanics resistance (as the DoT continues to tick while you move, this is important for casters).

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Tbf, this is only important if there's procs. You're still putting up the full amount all at once, under the effects present on initial application only.

E.g., if Glare III had a chance to give Glare IV vs. Dia having a chance to provide Glare IV, the first would be more uptime-dependent is present by penalizing you for every delayed GCD (needs each of 12 GCDs per 30s fully timed for max effect), whereas the first would only lose uptime if you delayed the single GCD by whatever number of GCDs (need 1 of 12 fully timed for max effectiveness).

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The former can be re-cast early, but this produces no extra damage. But might sometimes be useful depending on the upcoming few seocnds.

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Aye.

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The latter can burst more, sometimes important depending on the fight.

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Likewise only important if the mob needs to die in less than a DoT's time or in too far from a multiple of its duration.

(In a 6+ minute fight against a single enemy (the boss), though, there is effectively no difference, since the damage for the whole DoT is snapshotted to its moment of application, identically to instant-damage actions.)

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Originally Posted by mallleable

And to be honest, I feel like dots encourage padding which I don't find interesting at all, whereas burst damage is better at like, I don't know, killing stuff.

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Oh, as soon as tight DPS checks or TTK mismatch (see above) can become an issue, DoTs (as soft-CDs) are objectively weaker than our instant-damage CDs (be they normal/hard CDs or soft/granularly-charged-up ones). They just happen to be more flexible than hard CDs and tend to do something interesting with the gap between single-target and pure AoE since they, in effect, have simultaneous recharge per enemy.

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Tl;dr: Soft CDs and DoTs are functionally identical except in that the first gets only X charges while DoTs get X charges times the number of enemies but see diminishing returns the further the enemy's TTK gets from a multiple of the DoT duration.

I’d like to see changes in the encounter design that force more randomness and reactivity in the general play style of pve jobs. As opposed to each encounter following an exact script along with job rotations.

I’d also like to see job individuality and expressiveness even if that allows some jobs to outperform others in specific encounters. Ideally, the devs would build encounters that help balance those performances.

Finally, I’d like to see less focus on pure damage maximization being the primary goal of every job role. Perhaps this means some jobs have buff/debuff roles. Healers have to balance healing vs dps (more so than today). Tanks have to balance enmity generation, defense, and dps. Etc…

Some examples:
1. Utilizing the stun/interrupt system that exists and giving more tradeoffs/decision making to usage.
2. Well timed binds, paralysis may impact enemy’s ability to use certain movesets.
3. Other status effects temporarily buffing teammates or debuffing enemies. Like slow/haste, blind, etc…

Another thing I’d like to see is more interactivity between jobs. For example, perhaps bard or dancer can give a partner mp regen. This might help a black mage deal more damage in their fire phase or a dark knight deal more damage via edge of shadow or help a rdm raise multiple party members in a short time. Etc…