Prog skipping/lying is going wild this tier.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes, although the difference was that when I did it, I was extremely confident and that confidence was proven by 1 shotting it with the static. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't super confident.

The issue with prog liars is when they join a prog far beyond what they can get to consistently, and aren't confident in their ability to get to that prog point consistently, but want to benefit from the other players being consistent.

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I am pretty sure most people who go into PF share a very similar mentality. Overconfidence in their own ability to execute flawlessly something they have only seen once or in a guide. However, theory often doesn't translate into practice right away.

The other chunk pretty much are selfish a-holes who want to speed up progress at the expense of everyone else involved.

Anyway, in your case, at least you had a static, so basically a KFF situation, which is often done and okay. I also did it with p12s + another friend because we were just sick and tired of the memes.

For me, at least, when I see people join a certain prog point and fail to deliver consistency for whatever reason, and they do not remove themselves from the situation, I simply BL and kick them. By being kind to some random dude, you are unkind to everyone else, and that hardly seems fair.

A simpler reason is usually that a lot of people know that others are prog lying, and decide to go for a higher prog point to make up for this, consciously or unconsciously thinking that if they go for prog point +1, then people that will join are actually only at prog point 0. It results into a snowballing effect, a bit like when you have someone early pulling by 1s each pull and the tanks get annoyed and start pulling at -1 or -2, and the player in turn starts pulling at -3, etc.

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Originally Posted by Valence

A simpler reason is usually that a lot of people know that others are prog lying, and decide to go for a higher prog point to make up for this, consciously or unconsciously thinking that if they go for prog point +1, then people that will join are actually only at prog point 0. It results into a snowballing effect, a bit like when you have someone early pulling by 1s each pull and the tanks get annoyed and start pulling at -1 or -2, and the player in turn starts pulling at -3, etc.

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And then you get some randomer that just finished the previous fight into a prog point that is essentially the middle of the next fight.

You cannot win PF unless you heavily utilize the block list function; whatever reason the prog liars have is not even relevant. I clean up my BL at the end of the tier but it's one of the best ways to weave out the weeds.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I am pretty sure most people who go into PF share a very similar mentality. Overconfidence in their own ability to execute flawlessly something they have only seen once or in a guide. However, theory often doesn't translate into practice right away.

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I don't think they are overconfident, actually. I think that in many cases, the individuals are just impulsive ie. they don't think.

Their thought process is: "I have seen the mechanic once, therefore I am up to that mechanic", even though they can't get there consistently. I know because I have been in discord with random PUGs that have said that exact thing.

So let's say they saw 3rd phase of a fight with a bunch of deaths and numerous mistakes. Now they will join 3rd phase progs. They don't actually understand that they need to be able to get there consistently with no mistakes - vulns, damage downs, deaths, etc.

For myself it's different because normally I wouldn't do what I did. I would just join a fresh prog instead. It's very hard for me to be confident, so if I am then the fight must just genuinely be that easy for my role.

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For me, at least, when I see people join a certain prog point and fail to deliver consistency for whatever reason, and they do not remove themselves from the situation, I simply BL and kick them.

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It's inconsiderate for sure. In my experience, in all of life really, a lot of people are inconsiderate and I don't understand it.

Square needs to implement mechanics timeline for pf setting after tier is finished by first group. Just like in bozja boss giving you checkmark for doing mechanic correctly there should be simple system saving how far you are in a fight (again if you did mechanic correctly).

This will solve issue with people obsessed with tomestone % health checking (it's not real indicator and says nothing about progression) and also the fact that you HAVE TO use tomestone sometimes (for example FRU kill group having a tank joining without P5 pull, so they don't have muscle memory what to do with towers).

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If anything, the party finder tool needs to work such that people apply then the leader can choose who to invite. Would give party leaders more control over their party.

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This superficially appears to be a good idea, but the reality is that that is how you get the problem WoW and Lost Ark have suffered from in spades with PUGs: any stated gear requirement becomes basically hogwash because in reality the leader will be holding out for a hero with more armaments than Garlemald.

We already had plenty of player tales in previous tiers in which people felt like they were forced to quit progression for the tier not because of their skill, but because they did not have the luck to win enough Savage loot drops each week, and so their ilvl fell below their peers and they were forced down into the "poor" PF pool.

Add in the fact that there's nothing to make up for non-won Savage loot coffers in the gearing race until odd patch months later, and you have even more of an issue.

The result is that a seemingly useful solution really winds up being a half-baked one that intensifies the FOMO that is already frankly far too troublesome in endgame play. Not good.

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Dunno what's more cringe, that that guy actually wants a 'name-shaming list' or that he thinks SE or any reputable company would ever do something like that.

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This. It's well known that Japan having such a blacklist (they post it to one of their 4chan equivalents, IIRC) is already an issue with FFXIV culture. I can't imagine SE wanting to further enable it (frankly, I'm surprised they haven't done away with permanent Lodestone ID numbers, as they are fairly instrumental to the JP blacklist from what I have gleaned in the past).

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

But please tell me whats more cringe? Someone frequently joining PUG's far below their progpoint, wasting 7 other peoples time while being protected by multiple layers of ToS OR a community created list that reduces scummy behaviour like this.

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Do consider that only a fraction, likely a small minority, of these accused prog liars are likely doing so with an actual intent to grief. Most genuinely want to clear the duty, but they are frustrated or overconfident, and it is not always easy to peg your prog point clearly due to FFXIV's design allowing one to typically partake several mechanics past what many raiders would consider "your prog point" plus if you waited to be perfect at every mechanic every single time you would never do content. Even people that have ultimate on farm biff mechanics every now and then, after all ...


The real takeaway I'm getting from forums and Reddit this expansion is a very simple one.

Tilt is out of control, guys.

Don't you play this game to have fun? I have never seen such an absolute epidemic of tilt in any online RPG.

ANY ONLINE RPG.

This INCLUDES several expansions of WoW, and honestly, it even includes the Diablo II hardcore days where people routinely lost characters to cheaters that would use hacks to instantly portal to them and PK.

What the heck is wrong with people? I'm not even sure it's limited to gaming, humanity overall seems to be having this absolutely horrid problem with prickliness and mistrust ...

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I don't think they are overconfident, actually. I think that in many cases, the individuals are just impulsive ie. they don't think.

Their thought process is: "I have seen the mechanic once, therefore I am up to that mechanic", even though they can't get there consistently. I know because I have been in discord with random PUGs that have said that exact thing.

So let's say they saw 3rd phase of a fight with a bunch of deaths and numerous mistakes. Now they will join 3rd phase progs. They don't actually understand that they need to be able to get there consistently with no mistakes - vulns, damage downs, deaths, etc.

For myself it's different because normally I wouldn't do what I did. I would just join a fresh prog instead. It's very hard for me to be confident, so if I am then the fight must just genuinely be that easy for my role.
It's inconsiderate for sure. In my experience, in all of life really, a lot of people are inconsiderate and I don't understand it.

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I mean, whatever reason they got, they should not be doing that.

I have seen a lot of ppl hiding their activity and prog point now, but the funny part is... in m6s you cannot prog lie at ALL. The add phase has extremely specific and precise movements that each of the party members needs to do, as well as adds prior, and how they focus/cleave. Somebody that did not reached a point enough will be very easily exposed. It's just futile..

The thing is, if you don't lie, people with lower prog points who are lying will join your pf, and you won't be able to practice what you want. If you lie, you will be able to practice, but will end up screwing people that are being honest in your party. Lying has no consequence in PF, sure you might get blacklisted by some people, but I doubt that will stop the liar from raiding.

You give people power, they will abuse it to their filthiest end. Some random gamers on the net will do much much worse.

I think one wild thing is that people are advertising that they're checking _some_ website to see where you are in the fight, in party finder. People really like living on the edge of the law.