Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

Tangents aside, I think that Erenville and Cahciua's interactions were some of the best written segments of the Dawntrail MSQ. It actually feels like they're a family of real people. I know there are some localisation nuances around how Erenville's reactions are expressed that could influence whether you interpret his banter as 'irritation' as opposed to 'familiarity' in various languages, but it's pretty obvious that he was close to his mother, even despite his introversion. His growing anxiety was palpable as he questions the locals in S9 about her. It's not at all surprising that after losing her he wants to find a way to carry on her memory and legacy.

I think OP's points are correct. Characters need time to grow organically through their interactions with others. This also gives the writers the opportunity to gauge the audience's reactions to them and capitalise on aspects of those interactions that people find enjoyable.

Hyth is another example of a character who started out with a bit part, that expanded out through the Tales from the Shadows short stories, and eventually lead into his own starring role. Each progressive appearance fleshed him out more, to the point where the character almost writes himself. I think when you try to force this to happen artificially, then you start to run into problems.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Tangents aside, I think that Erenville and Cahciua's interactions were some of the best written segments of the Dawntrail MSQ. It actually feels like they're a family of real people. I know there are some localisation nuances around how Erenville's reactions are expressed that could influence whether you interpret his banter as 'irritation' as opposed to 'familiarity' in various languages, but it's pretty obvious that he was close to his mother, even despite his introversion. His growing anxiety was palpable as he questions the locals in S9 about her. It's not at all surprising that after losing her he wants to find a way to carry on her memory and legacy.

I think OP's points are correct. Characters need time to grow organically through their interactions with others. This also gives the writers the opportunity to gauge the audience's reactions to them and capitalise on aspects of those interactions that people find enjoyable.

Hyth is another example of a character who started out with a bit part, that expanded out through the Tales from the Shadows short stories, and eventually lead into his own starring role. Each progressive appearance fleshed him out more, to the point where the character almost writes himself. I think when you try to force this to happen artificially, then you start to run into problems.

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And that is part of why I'm sure some don't like Wuk Lamat. Or at least don't feel as though she was allowed to bake all the way through. She had a lot of Lyse and Moenbryda flags checked when we first met her. Moenbryda's only being the spunky and we all know what happened last time. Looking back on the post patches I feel that they should have given us longer ones for 6.1-6.3 where we did all of the Zero stuff and brought in Wuk Lamat in for 6.4 and 6.5. Now I know some would complain about the length, but then that's this fanbase. A part of it always needs to complain about something even if back then one of the biggest complaints was the "shortness" of the msq section of the patches. Now, I doubt giving us more time pre Dawntrail with Wuk Lamat would have solved most of the issues people have with her. She's kind of like a baked dish that has one aspect that didn't bake correctly. The dish as a whole is still edible but the taste and look will still be off.

With Moenbryda, she came and she was gone in the space of three patches. We barely had time to get to know her before she sacced herself to save the world. :(

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Looking back on the post patches I feel that they should have given us longer ones for 6.1-6.3 where we did all of the Zero stuff and brought in Wuk Lamat in for 6.4 and 6.5.

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Base Hrothgal character models weren't ready until 6.55 - she was a pair of legs in 6.5 apparently!

But I think a voiceover of the conversation she must have had with Erenville could have been dropped at the end of 6.4, around the time he was leaving. Or maybe a voiceover conversation with only Gulool Ja Ja visible, and the three siblings squabbling as he quizzed them about something about politics.

"You have heard a plague has broken out in a village beyond the mountains. How do you respond?"

"I would send the Landsguard to go protect the village until they are well enough to take care of themselves again."

"I would send chirugeons and the latest in Sage technology to heal them."

"I would.... talk to them, and ask them what supplies they needed the most?"

"Gahahaha! All three good answers, all three, my children! None of them are wrong, and yet none of them are complete. I want you all to think about what OTHER things you can do, and have your answer for me. Llamat'yl, you and I still have our training session to go. Are you ready?"

"Yes, Father!"

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Base Hrothgal character models weren't ready until 6.55 - she was a pair of legs in 6.5 apparently!

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It's more likely that they just deliberately omitted the rest of the model because they knew players would datamine the rest of the character's appearance – as indeed they did, why is why we know she was an incomplete model.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hyth is another example of a character who started out with a bit part, that expanded out through the Tales from the Shadows short stories, and eventually lead into his own starring role. Each progressive appearance fleshed him out more, to the point where the character almost writes himself. I think when you try to force this to happen artificially, then you start to run into problems.

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Hyth is actually damn-near exactly an example of 'Back By Popular Demand' that was fueled by fan response; his presence in Endwalker was chiefly because the fanbase liked him so much in Shadowbringers (which kinda makes sense when you realize how little he actually did in Endwalker). And his unique position of not actually being physically present in Shadowbringers actually means he's basically the only example of this presenting physically, too; they made him hot because we already liked him so much. I remember an interview where Yoshi-P talked directly about this, he wasn't sure Hyth quite made sense as a hot guy, but I unfortunately can't find it right now.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

they made him hot because we already liked him so much.

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At this point it's feeling like a bit of a pattern that as soon as the fandom likes a "cool old guy" character, he gets swapped out for being younger and the new version doesn't necessarily work as well.

Hyth does make sense as a younger version of the shade we meet in Amaurot, who feels more mellow and reflective, but it's still a bit of a jump in personality.

The Exarch was well-liked and we ended up with young G'raha instead - not that I am personally complaining, but he's clearly somewhat divisive among players.

And now we have Erenville, who in Endwalker seemed very much to me like he was supposed to be a confident veteran gleaner who only appeared young because Viera are like that. And suddenly he becomes popular and now he's suddenly a young prodigy and still in his brooding teenager phase.

I do need to replay Endwalker with Dawntrail in mind and see if it still adds up, but I really suspect it wasn't the intention.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

At this point it's feeling like a bit of a pattern that as soon as the fandom likes a "cool old guy" character, he gets swapped out for being younger and the new version doesn't necessarily work as well.

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Oh god, I think you might be right. Emet-Selch damn-near exactly fits this mold; the audience absolutely loved when he was a dark but intriguing figure haunted by his past and of somewhat debatable morality... and then Endwalker comes along and goes 'oh, you liked that, well you're gonna love meeting him before any of the defining moments in his life that led to him becoming who we know him to be!'

We need to keep an eye on Sphene; it'd be a weird instance, since Sphene isn't exactly 'old' so much as 'ageless and unchanging', but it might be the closest example to see if they do this to a woman too; they could bring in the true, non-Endless Queen somehow.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

We need to keep an eye on Sphene; it'd be a weird instance, since Sphene isn't exactly 'old' so much as 'ageless and unchanging', but it might be the closest example to see if they do this to a woman too; they could bring in the true, non-Endless Queen somehow.

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Similar but different, when they first introduced Hydaelyn the framing suggested that she was a giant crystal. Later on they present Hydaelyn instead as a young woman, whom we know is distinct from the Mothercrystal since it continues to exist after the death of Hydaelyn. They really gijinkaed that rock!

This same discussion applies to the Ancients in general. Sure, you could argue that they were maybe generic faceless beings in Amaurot because Emet-Selch forgot their individual faces, which is tragic and I love that for him, but what's going on with their ween-woon voices? Is that actually how they talked? Did it get retconned to make them more "relatable" in Elpis? It could just be that they thought the sound effect would get tiresome for a whole zone, but if that was the case they could have had us hearing ween-woons gradually transitioning into spoken dialogue via the Echo... idk. I think you all might be on to something. (And I'm saying that as a huge Hythlodaeus stan.)

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

This same discussion applies to the Ancients in general. Sure, you could argue that they were maybe generic faceless beings in Amaurot because Emet-Selch forgot their individual faces, which is tragic and I love that for him, but what's going on with their ween-woon voices? Is that actually how they talked? Did it get retconned to make them more "relatable" in Elpis? It could just be that they thought the sound effect would get tiresome for a whole zone, but if that was the case they could have had us hearing ween-woons gradually transitioning into spoken dialogue via the Echo... idk. I think you all might be on to something. (And I'm saying that as a huge Hythlodaeus stan.)

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The "ween-woons" (great term by the way, immediately knew what you meant!) are also used on the moon when talking to the actual shades of those sacrificed to Zodiark, including Hythlodaeus. Since this was content added in the same expansion when we visit Elpis, my interpretation would be that the facelessness and ween-woons aren't due to any sort of memory degradation from Emet-Selch, but are intended to in some way be genuinely representative.

I'll add that to the list containing hand-wavy Elpis discrepancies, like how Emet-Selch gives us aether to make us more dense and larger, but when we leave Elpis we're unchanged.