Game Design Concepts that the Devs and Playerbase has Forgotten

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Originally Posted by ViaDesperare

mucho texto

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wow almost as if different devlopers have different insights and priorities in reegards to their ideal visions

i played erdtree right before dawntrail, very different game with different values in regards to gaeplay, story, immersion, and interaction. i dont want yoshi to be miyazaki and i dont want miyazaki to be yoshi p

If Square Enix made a "FF17" and was just a reskin of Genshin Impact, people would rightfully decry the greed. Sure, it might have a cool story, but because all the characters are locked behind gacha, and you can't progress without certain element-aligned characters you can only get from gacha, and can only upgrade characters with gacha-supplied trash loot, that's not how final fantasy works.

So compare the WoW players who hate story coming here demanding less story, to players coming from gacha-hell games asking why they can't just pay-to-win every piece of gear in the game without actually doing the fights they are rewarded from. You have two opposing gameplay styles. One only wants to do the "Gameplay" and the end goal is fashion, and the other's end goal is fashion and is somehow happy that gameplay is gated off without spending money.

I feel that "Final Fantasy" as it is now, has the right balance, TO Final Fantasy players. We can't have exactly the experience from FF7-X2 because pre-rendered content can only be used once. There is no pre-rendered content in the game other than the opening video. Everything is done in-engine (to various degrees of success.) A newer game than 14 (Eg 15 and 16) may improve the engine, but these games can not repeat VII's success. And to bean counters and business managers, if the "newest" thing doesn't do better than the previous one, then they see it as a failure when it should not be.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If Square Enix made a "FF17" and was just a reskin of Genshin Impact, people would rightfully decry the greed. Sure, it might have a cool story, but because all the characters are locked behind gacha, and you can't progress without certain element-aligned characters you can only get from gacha, and can only upgrade characters with gacha-supplied trash loot, that's not how final fantasy works.

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Nah people would buy it and play it all the time, Gacha game are one of the most popular and profitable type of game currently. People don't care if there a predatory greedy system to roll for character as long as the game is good. Also as someone who don't love gacha that much. Ive still played a few never seen one that litteraly block you in the story or main content if you lack certain element aligned characters. As much as I hate Genshin, I can't critic their puzzle since they are doable with your MC and free characters, and you know, doing those puzzle is a f2p way to roll the gacha.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So compare the WoW players who hate story coming here demanding less story, to players coming from gacha-hell games asking why they can't just pay-to-win every piece of gear in the game without actually doing the fights they are rewarded from. You have two opposing gameplay styles. One only wants to do the "Gameplay" and the end goal is fashion, and the other's end goal is fashion and is somehow happy that gameplay is gated off without spending money.

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Nice Strawman and nice way to say you never played both of those game. WoW player don't hate story, they just love the fact that game don't force them to go trought the whole story to unlock every contents of the game, They prefer having the option to ignore the story if they choose so, whitout paying real life money. I also quite litteraly never seen anyone ask seriously for a way to p2w and get every piece of gear in the game.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A newer game than 14 (Eg 15 and 16) may improve the engine, but these games can not repeat VII's success.

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Final Fantasy 10 sold more than 7.

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Originally Posted by SwadTheFrog

Because I recognize you from other threads, where all you do is antagonize other people and ignore any form of criticism, no matter how well-structured it is, you tend strawman everything with a very reductvist attittude. This is not a diss at you, by the way, but rather a gentle nudge that you can and should take other people's opinions into account without dismissing them because they don't line up with yours. I agree that DW has a fair few good points (Music, for the most part is really good, and battle content design has gotten better), but your attitude has been genuinely reductive and harmful for discussion.

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I'll give you the same genuine challenge I gave Shurrikhan (who apparently can't back up his words?) - please prove what you just said. Show me where I've used a strawman fallacy. Interesting that you tacitly acknowledged that because of your (false?) impression from other threads, you did put words in my mouth here.

I think something that might help with your perspective on me is my intentions, though. I'm not generally expecting to change people's minds here. I'm pretty confident I know the kind of echo chamber that's been set up and the type of people that push it. I've also seen what happens to people who post positive things meekly. I know the biggest thing that certain kinds of people aren't used to is having someone they're pushing around actually push back, so I do.

And no, a couple of people going into a deluge of negative posts to say a couple positive things is not equivalent to a deluge of people trying to take over and wreck any rare positive thread that dares crop up. Little squeaks in a giant sea of negativity are not equivalent to a chorus invading a positive thread to drown it out. The group that has the immense numerical advantage bears the brunt of responsibility there. If your post is an attempt at being genuine, please, please take some time to learn what the concept of a metaphorical "echo chamber" refers to. Asking for one or two positive threads to stay positive in a sea of dozens of negative threads is "literally" the opposite of an echo chamber.

But I'll leave my challenge to you again - please show me where I have set up a strawman fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

Nah people would buy it and play it all the time, Gacha game are one of the most popular and profitable type of game currently. People don't care if there a predatory greedy system to roll for character as long as the game is good.
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Final Fantasy 10 sold more than 7.

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The forum ate have the message and I just didn't bother rewriting it. Every time people say they come from WoW, here, they say they don't want to do the story. They just want to get to the endgame immedately, P2W. The other side of this is Gacha oriented games like Genshin Impact where you can access the story, but it's gated by P2W gacha mechanics. You can not finish a gacha game unless you either get lucky in the "Free" gacha rolls, or you are impatient and drop thousands of dollars on 0.2% gacha drops. If you like that stuff, fine. But that IS NOT a Final Fantasy game, and asking for that stuff here just makes the asker look like a fool at worst.

Final Fantasy X sales include X and X2. FF7 is 14m alone, FF16 alone is 10m

https://www.jp.square-enix.com/compa...6c8715511.html

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In 2003, "FINAL FANTASY X-2," the first story sequel in the FF series, was released, and the two games together have shipped more than 14 million copies worldwide.

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Gacha games you can't play after the publisher decides to shut it down. Which is why you should never play them. Don't get invested in it.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Someone seems to have forgotten though that the Final Fantasy series is famed for story more than gameplay (and that this is a Final Fantasy game first and foremost.).

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They all have story and gameplay. And the older ones were also good on the whole game front up until 13.

I played every single Final Fantasy and none of them are a visual novel like XIV is nowadays with literally nothing to do in-between but press X twice until the mob dies. It's technically still a game but I'd be lying if a said I found it engaging.

I'm convinced that if you were to transplant the current jobs into a single player game and remove the FF IP the game would flop without the story to carry it.

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Every time people say they come from WoW, here, they say they don't want to do the story.

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I came from WoW when I started playing back in ARR and I wanted to do the story. I still think it bad to force it down people throat since it not something everyone want. Locking contents behind the story also make it harder to play with friends who are just starting. People can already skip most cutscenes while doing the story anyway so it just feel weird that you can't just...skip the whole thing whitout paying yknow.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

They just want to get to the endgame immedately

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Some people like trials and raids. Sadly while not impossible, it kinda rare finding people who want to do prog or bling prog on old contents. This create a situation that even if you, let say, like the story but want to do endgames encounter, you need to go trough 10 years of story b4 getting access to the most populated endgame contents. Remember, that hundreds of hours of story just to get the right of unlocking the things.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The other side of this is Gacha oriented games like Genshin Impact where you can access the story, but it's gated by P2W gacha mechanics. You can not finish a gacha game unless you either get lucky in the "Free" gacha rolls, or you are impatient and drop thousands of dollars on 0.2% gacha drops.

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That depend on the games. The only gacha I play, limbus company, can be completed whitout even rolling in the gacha. People have proven you can even complete the hardest content of the game (wich is optional btw) With the weakest team possible, wich often include characters that are weaker than the base stuff the game give to you.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Final Fantasy X sales include X and X2. FF7 is 14m alone, FF16 alone is 10m.

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From what I've seen, as of 2023 FF X sales come up to 20M wich is bigger than og FF7 wich stand at 14m and the remake that stand at 12m. idk why you added FF16 in there, but remeber that the game had kind of bad sales at launch and also it often come ''free'' with PS5 consoles. That how I got mine, I worked at Gamestop during it launch.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Gacha games you can't play after the publisher decides to shut it down. Which is why you should never play them. Don't get invested in it.

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Just like every live service game, wich btw include FF14. Don't get invested in this game please.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

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It's a lot easier to forgive when the story is at least good.

And while I haven't exactly done a hard numerical analysis... I'm pretty sure at least SB had so many more memorable solo duties. Naadam, the Zenos fights, the goofy roe Garlean encounters come to mind immediately.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

So we've had very little combat outside of trials and dungeons for ~8 years. Why is this being brought up all the time now? Are a bunch of new people joining who don't know how it works?

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The ratio of gameplay/story was way more balanced pre-Endwalker. Even back in SHB we had tons of small combat vs some mobs in-between cutscene and talking to npc. It is, in fact a relatively new thing that the MSQ chain back to back cutscene and ''go talk to this npc that moved slightly on the map''. If anything they just replaced most of the gameplay part with ''Rp walk with this character while he randomly stop at some spot to drop some minor lore, just b4 he start running for no reasons!1!!!1!''