/r/ffxivdiscussion: Has FFXIV had any major retcons or plot holes in the story?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

I don't see how any of those things actually interferes with what I've said.

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The logic you're using about The Echo and The Blessing is in hindsight because of what was revealed to us in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. A lot of the things before that and some of the things after it don't really add up. They always used the terms kinda interchangeably, so anyone who'd played for a long time could see this was a massively difficult, but brave thing to try and distinguish at that point in the game.

We know the differences in hindsight, but again we've had people with The Echo face primals such as Arenvald. If Arenvald also had achieved the blessing (all elemental crystals), which protects him from primal influence, would he not also be a "Warrior of Light"? If so, why was he not referred to as such? The entire point was the blessing was what made us a Warrior of Light rather than just merely a "person with The Echo".

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

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The alternative was Zodiark, who had tempered all the other Ancients, would allow the remainder of them to sacrifice themselves to empower him, out of their misguided belief Zodiark would deliver them from despair. Zodiark would become even stronger and there would be nobody left. The exact thing that happened on every other star, which sacrificed themselves in similar ways. Like the ones who sacrificed themselves to Ra-La, the ones who fought a war against eachother and eradicated eachother or the ones who shed their flesh (the Ea) and then thought everything was pointless because they couldn't feel. Like the beast tribes sacrificed their kind endlessly to their primals.

They all had one thing in common: they pursued perfection and the result was their own destruction. The Ancients had that same goal and were headed in the same direction, destroying themselves in pursuit of perfection.

The solution, not being perfect and the benefit of having less aether is being able to interpret dynamis properly as a force to overcome the hardships that come with not being perfect.

In any case, the sundering may still have happened, but we would not have known who Fandaniel was, which we needed to. Hydaelyn may not have known to look out for us, but probably would recognize the spirit as Azem's and connect the dots with all the heroic adventuring.

Even if we'd somehow prevented the Sundering in Elpis, it wouldn't matter, because the game runs on multiverse theory. The Eighth Calamity timeline still exists, according to one of the Tales of the Shadows, despite G'raha preventing it; it's just a splinter timeline (or maybe that's the main timeline and we're in the splinter. Semantics).

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Originally Posted by Asako

My only Issue comes at the end of base Endwalker after the last battle. You activate the Maguffin, release it. Have a few cutscenes, fly through space, have another battle and cutscene and then it just lands beside you at the right time. I know it's a game and some things can get a bit over the top but this was dumb. It should be miles behind you.

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There are some hints in the Margrat custom delivery quest that imply it may have been the will of the Ragnarok itself (and all the researchers back home praying for your safe return) that sends you the Macguffin. Think of it like the reaper at the end of the Praetorium, since the Ragnarok is basically a giant, flying arcanima mammet.

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Originally Posted by Jessica_VS

One of the most common inconsistencies in fantasy writing is when a character gets wounded by something that, in any other scenario, would be easy to heal... with the most ridiculous example being when Aymeric is stabbed by knife-guy in the Post-Heavensward quests. Where is the white mage (or better yet, since everyone is right there in Ishgard, the astrologian) who can heal him?

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The way i remember the class quests from AST(if im wrong, someone please correct me) this actually makes some sense. Ishgardian Astros focus solely on predicting dragon attacks via the "movements of the dragonstar" or some such astrology nonsense. The class quests include a lot of "establishment" people trying to shut down your group, theres a quest fight where they make a big deal about the fact that you can heal and be useful in a fight(rather then just predicting dragons), and just otherwise proof of how worthless Ishgardian Astros are. Aside from that, white mages are supposed to be fleetingly rare in the setting. Are there conjurors outside of gridania? But yeah, the WoL is there and a lot of us have healing training at this point. Special attacks like the spear of light? Fine. But a stupid knife in the gut? I can heal that with a single oGCD.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Remember when Y'shtola using her aethervision was killing her?
I can't wait for that to never come up again

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I know people hate her for how often she cheats death but this one is a bit unfair.

We have no timeline for how long it's going to take.

It was stated (only in the English dialogue, apparently) that it would shorten her lifespan. Therefore, unless the game's timeline actually moves so we're not perpetually five years after the Calamity, it won't ever come up again.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

They are using the same method of timetravel, the Crystal Tower, that G'raha used to change the past. Also, having her try to change things and having them end up the same way isn't what happened. The timeline is preserved because she takes every step to preserve it. Also, us traveling back does change the past, by telling her about the Sundering, we cause the Sundering. So we open our mouths to get people killed, but we keep our mouths shut when we could prevent their deaths. If the time loop cannot be changed then the WoL should be able to shout from the rooftops during Pandemonium and it wouldn't matter, but we don't tell these people what is coming for them, because we need them to die so we can have their parts.

And even if it was a closed loop that couldn't be stopped no matter what we did (even though we didn't try a thing). That would not change eradicating your entire species for being weak and replacing them with what you deem a stronger species being an act of genocide. It'd just be an unpreventable act of genocide, which this wasn't, this was an act of genocide we went for at every opportunity.

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It is not consistent with the myriad other examples of time travel used like with Graha. It's an exclusive choice for this one section of EW that is inconsistent with the rest of the game entirely.

Also, the detail they added about changing the state of man is, once again, another example of making things up as they go along. The sundering was literally never about that. They added it to make it make sense for the villain/dynamis. Then, in retrospect, it makes Hydaelyn looks genocidal. Originally it was just an attack aimed at Zodiark that had the effect of sundering all of reality (which is what it still is, really).

Elidibus exact words:

"As such, I believe I can deliver you unto the past. Unto that place and precise moment. Yet even should you manage to interact with others, you will unable to affect meaningful change. For the reality you wish to save-- the reality to which you must return-- exists as a result of the Final Days. You cannot rehsape the past to undo the tragedies of the present. Cannot unmake the sorrow and suffering fated to come."

Also, the story is absurd otherwise. We leave the past and Venat gives us an impression that they'll be "preparing" -- yet things end up exactly the same. Like, exactly the same. There's no way for you to make that make sense. It follows as Elidibus said-- this is a type of travel where changes to the past cannot interfere with the present. And yes, given the loop, it can be argued that the WoL invented the entire scenario by introducing all these elements to the past.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

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Everything you've said is headcannon that is not supported by anything told in the story that you've made up in order to justify the atrocity committed by Venat. If the Ancients are all tempered why is there disagreement over the third sacrifice? Why do the Loporits explain that tempering was added by the Ascians after the sundering? Why did Venat not warn them that Zodiark would temper them? Why did Venat steal the blueprints of Zodiark to make herself if he was such a bad guy? If primals are made based off the desires of the creators, why would a being created from the desire to save the world instead destroy it? You're making all this up because the truth of the story as it's told to us is that Zodiark had the means to restore their planet entirely. And Venat needed the human race to suffer in order to pass Meteion's test. When she sunders the world she says, "No longer shall man have wings to bear him to paradise." Does everyone dying while brainwashed sound like any descriptor of paradise to you? What is the distinction you're making between a perfect world and a better world? The Ancients wanted to get their loved ones out of the shield defending their planet against an attack Venat never warned them about. That's not perfection, that's just better. And the idea we shouldn't strive for a better world runs counter to every other moral in FF14. Why are we doing what we are doing if making things better will lead to our end? Why not make more war and death and kids freezing out in the cold if that is what it takes to become "strong"? Her belief system is nonsensical and falls apart if you think about it for more than 30 seconds. Venat didn't have soul sight as far as I'm aware, so if Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus didn't figure out we were a ripped up Frakenstiened Azem soul, then there is no reason to assume Venat would have. Plus, she needs more detailed information in order to let the Ascians go, so they can kill the exact number of people needed to make us. Because of the loop, we are now directly responsible for every rejoining as they happen specifically to ensure our creation.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

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When he said this, he didn't know we'd be corporal. Secondly, this isn't even a tech invented by his species, why does he know the rules when those who invented it don't even know? Thirdly, we did change the past. We caused the Sundering. Had we kept out mouths closed the entire time, the Sundering never happens. It was only speaking that caused it. And after we cause it, we stop speaking to make sure it goes through. Sure it's the writers controlling our character to make sure they do exactly what is necessary to cause a genocide and nothing more. They wrote the WoL to knowingly be directly responsible for a genocide. Because once the wheels are set in motion, the fact we then don't take action to stop it proves the WoL is complicit.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Tural, aka the new world, was originally called Mamook until Dawntrail.

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This one can be explained by Mamook being the name of the similar zone in FFXI.

Regarding the multi-verse timelines: Once you reconnect with Hydalaen after returning from Elpis, she says that the timeline you are in - the one where you survived Elpis and made it back to the present (not to mention survived everything else the universe threw at you before that) - has formed a conjunction with the past, and that allowed her to remember you specifically as the one who traveled back in time to warn them. Before that, you were one of thousands of reincarnations of Azem - all she knew is that it was one of them who had traveled back, but she had no idea which one.

Does Hydalaen have awareness of the other timelines, I wonder? Does she know if the 8th Umbral Calamity where the WoL died before making it to Elpis?

Dragging any story out over a long period will lead to issues. No mattter how hard you try to avoid them. EW just felt the climax of so many years, its why they didnt do Garlean focus expansion. As it would have ended up being a stormblood 2.0, just result of not wrapping Garlean up sooner. My opinion I would have has us go to Razdit han first then Garlemald and finally Sharlyan. Wish us jumping back to Garlemald long enough for the moon bit.