Dark Knight needs serious help

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Well, DRK > PLD. Tell a modern-XIV-raider PLD to Clemency someone, sacrificing a GCD, and they'll likely have a conniption. GNB at least has a free ally-targetable heal beyond their on-demand, opposite WAR's just absurd amount of total sustain grantable even to non-tanks via SiO and NF.

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PLD Intervention has the same total heal potency as a regen as Clemency. Unless a fight is so tightly strapped that they need to use all the oath gauge on tanks only, they can use Intervention to heal people, doubly so if they mitigate something with it.

Clemency is only the backup when shit hits the fan.

There's nothing wrong with tanks overlapping with healers in terms of support functions. These redundancies give players the potential to cross-compensate for the weaknesses of others in easier content.

That being said, a major problem with a lot of the self-healing effects that we've seen introduced this expansion is that they don't require any skill to use. When you insert a passive 'Additional Effect: Restores HP' effect on to every action, you have not designed a lifesteal tank. You might as well pin a passive regen buff on to tank stance. The tanks encouraging this design approach are likely the ones who screech at their healers every time their HP dips below 90%.

If you want to design a lifesteal tank, you need to create a skill differential around how well the player understands damage patterns. The idea being that you can't burst heal on demand. You either need to align your offensive burst window with damage spikes, or you're left with a short window after your HP has dropped to critical levels to try and save yourself. You'll know you've done a good job when everyone is on the edge of their seat wondering whether you or the boss will go down first. It needs to feel risky to play.

It's also worth remembering that every tank needs to have similar opportunities for carry potential, even if they don't all go about it the same way. If WAR or PLD can step in for a fallen healer to save a run, what equivalent benefit does DRK or GNB bring to the table?

^except it’s not an overlap, it’s straight up the tank doing the healers job for them

Overlap would involve the healer functionally being able to be an off tank in certain situations if the situation demanded it, but healers are the squishiest role

There is never any overlap with healers there is only ever healers getting their job given to other roles with no return

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

PLD Intervention has the same total heal potency as a regen as Clemency. Unless a fight is so tightly strapped that they need to use all the oath gauge on tanks only, they can use Intervention to heal people, doubly so if they mitigate something with it.

Clemency is only the backup when shit hits the fan.

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There's not much value in separating sustain into mitigation and healing in that fashion, though. Yes, Intervention can heal for as much as Clemency, but as a HoT. Per a mere 15s, TBN can also shield for more than that. Why fuss over the one and not the other if the values are similar (atop the shield being more likely to prevent a death on a low-HP ally than the % miti + HoT?

I have to agree with Lyth here. There's not inherently any more a problem with tank healing than with tank mitigation; the issue is simply that a lot of the newest healing takes virtually no consideration to optimize, or outright cannot be optimized in itself (only by healers not wasting oGCDs just before Req, etc.). But were that a barrier one didn't need to optimize the timing of, the issue would be the same. They're both sustain and, in that example, both relatively skill-less / "braindead".

Screw tank healing if I wanted to heal I would play healer I am here to take damage using shields, buffs and healers are here to heal thats it the only tank that make since that it would heal is PLD

PLD: Raid wide protection and healing buff to help healers
WAR : The more it take damage the more it deals damage get harder and harder to kill
DRK: Less damage , bulky tank with a lot of magic shields and counters
GNB: No healing, Highest Damage

That's how thing should be we are tanks not healers but I guess the game would be too hard for most people

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Well, DRK > PLD. Tell a modern-XIV-raider PLD to Clemency someone, sacrificing a GCD, and they'll likely have a conniption. GNB at least has a free ally-targetable heal beyond their on-demand, opposite WAR's just absurd amount of total sustain grantable even to non-tanks via SiO and NF.

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I feel like this is more of a "Paladin is bad" problem rather than it being selfish.
Intervention, Cover, Clemency, Wings, and Veil exist. Cover and Clemency and never optimal, but they're still things you CAN do.

DRK just has the standard short mit and raidwide in comparison, the thing that every tank has by default. It just so happens that in practice all of PLD's tools come a steep cost and are clunky to use.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Have you actually read Nascent or Shake it off though?
WAR is far from selfish, its team mitigations far outpace what the other tanks can do, with the only one coming close being PLD with both wings and Veil, but at the cost of being clunkier to use.
If any tank is the selfish tank its DRK or GNB. Currently bringing a good WAR is like having a high damage tank who's also acting as a 3rd healer for free.

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Maybe read my first comment that they replied to, I disagree with shake it off in its current state.
The Job Should be more selfish, I'd also nerf nascent flash quite a bit personally.

It feels like you mistook my point being is that I want Paladin to lean into a more utility tank with supportive options
While warrior should be about Self healing and sustain, not grouped sustain like it currently is. It needs to keep some utility clearly to be on par with other tanks but it's likely got the best team healing and group healing which shouldn't be apart of Warrior.

DRK survivability is fine, it just gets overshadowed by Warrior's ridiculous amount of self-sustain in dungeons and the other new toys the other tanks got at lvl 82. I'd much rather they actually give it its own [offensive] identity again by making it not Warrior with more ogcd's.

All tanks have had a significant increase in the amount of defensive functions that they provide, well past what any of the encounters actually require. The problem is that those improvements have been unequal in a lot of cases. Could DRK clear a physical only fight, which knocks out two of their defensives completely? Absolutely. Can DRK clear fights despite actually relying on their healer for heals? Definitely. The question being asked is: what unique benefit does DRK bring to the table to offset these unique disadvantages?

If we want Dark Missionary and Heart of Light to be magic only, they should be unambiguously better than Shake it off, as well as the combined effect of Divine Veil and Passage of Arms, all of which work on all damage types. What we have right now is unambiguously worse, even before we account for the fact that these effects are magic only. If you have a problem with that, then just make all mitigation work against all damage types. What a novel concept.

It's fine to have variations in self-healing between the tanks, because content is generally meant to be done with a healer present. But if you want to have one tank be unambiguously better than the others at self-sustain, then you need alternative exclusive benefits to offset this. Perhaps other tanks bring movement speed buffs, or raidwide knockback negation, or perhaps even effects that make spells lose their cast times. Of course, when you do that, the arms race continues. Where's WAR's Plunge? Where's WAR's TBN? Where's WAR's speed boost?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR's Plunge?

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Didnt this one already happen? DRK used to be the gap closer tank way back when.

Now WAR has 4 gap closers to DRK's 2 and a hilarioously underwhelming trait.