About the Blessing of Light and the Echo

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Do you recall where it's stated that any of these 3 have the Blessing of Light? I did some research as I wasn't quite sure myself and what I found was only mentions of them having the Echo, but never the Blessing of Light.


Hmmm, it does have the same shape. Is the crystal she holds in that scene revealed at a previous point in the story? If so that might be the key to identifying whether it was a Crystal of Light.

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After the Isle of Vale is Destroyed and during the time we are trying to find the Scions in heavensward Krile explicitly says that the blessing of light protected her from the Isle's destruction (it also says this in the Unending codex as well see link below). Also when Elidibus hits Minfillia with a spell of darkness at the old base he makes a comment about Hydaelyn's protection on her.

https://www.theunendingcodex.com/persons/krile

ps I doubled checked to make sure that post is valid if you still don't believe it then you can check your own Unending codex.

Also Ryne has the blessing of light as well which protects her from the Sineaters.. it was an entire plot point of ShB oh and she didn't have the echo and she's never heard Hydaelyn


Also as a quick counter point Elidibus used the exact same attack he used on Minfillia on G'raha before the SoS fight on the First and due to G'raha not being "blessed" by Hydaelyn the attack was withstood because he was 8 times rejoined and that was remarked upon by Elidibus as well (the Scene where Elidibus shows up while we are feeling the "wind" on our face)

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Is there an example of someone with the Echo being tempered?

The only thing I can recall is Emet-Selch saying that Zodiark tempered the Convocation, which I'm hesitant to embrace as objective lore because he is at times an unreliable source.

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One of the moon rabbits touches on it while explaining the difference between proper creation magics and the flawed summoning magic shared by the Ascians. As you're likely aware, the former does not include the flaws of aether consumption and tempering. There is, however, one exception noted during the explanation: beings on the scale of Zodiark. As it's explained, Zodiark tempered them through its sheer, overwhelming power alone. This was described by the rabbit in question as feeling a "slight tug," which in context would be the seemingly lesser form of tempering we see afflicting the unsundered. Well, Emet-Selch, at least. Elidibus was little more than a primal driven by singular purpose for most of the time we knew him, and Lahabrea was so far gone to madness that his duty was all he saw. With them, it's difficult to tell how much was tempering and how much was just their unfortunate circumstances. Emet-Selch is really the closest thing we have to a proper gauge. At any rate, we're given no reason to believe he's an exception to the rule.

So, put simply, the Echo can be overwhelmed by a sufficiently powerful force. Big Z tempered a bunch of unsundered ancients just by existing, but it wasn't severe enough for them to lose themselves.

There's also the matter of memories. It is suggested during the Eden storyline that a sundered Ascian taking on their ancient memories will become subject to Zodiark's tempering again, just as their past selves had been. Notably, all of the sundered Ascians we encounter (with the exception of Fandaniel) seem to be far more strongly affected by it than their unsundered counterparts.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Do you recall where it's stated that any of these 3 have the Blessing of Light? I did some research as I wasn't quite sure myself and what I found was only mentions of them having the Echo, but never the Blessing of Light.


Hmmm, it does have the same shape. Is the crystal she holds in that scene revealed at a previous point in the story? If so that might be the key to identifying whether it was a Crystal of Light.

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Thanks Rannie and Absimiliard. Arenvald doesn't say it, but since Venat tells us that it's the Blessing of Light that's supposed to be the thing that prevents tempering then it's only logical to assume any sundered echo wielder also has the Blessing. Heck it's the thing Nidhana is testing when she gives us that lantern. Which also means that those with the resonate also have a copied version of the Blessing.

I'm not sure if she's ever seen holding a crystal at any other point of time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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I figure part of why Zenos is the way he is, is in part due to who his great grandfather is. He also seems to be a fast learner. Don't forget he also knew about the Reaper fighting style. Even if their teleportation and shielding is different from those Ascians use he'd probably have an idea as to how they work.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I figure part of why Zenos is the way he is, is in part due to who his great grandfather is. He also seems to be a fast learner. Don't forget he also knew about the Reaper fighting style. Even if their teleportation and shielding is different from those Ascians use he'd probably have an idea as to how they work.

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Given we learned from Jullus that Reapers are at least academically known to Garleans, I don't think it's at all surprising that Zenos had some knowledge of and training in it. Especially given that he was Great Grandpa Solus' favorite, and Great Grandpa Solus loved nothing more than he loved dramatic irony.

Also it seems that Zenos got some sort of extra strength after he kicked Elidibus out of his body, but it's not super clear what exactly that was or meant. I kinda get the feeling even Zenos didn't care that much; he's sort of a frustrating person to talk about lore-wise in that way, because his interests are so narrow-focused that he doesn't even care enough to be a reliable source of information about himself.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

since Venat tells us that it's the Blessing of Light that's supposed to be the thing that prevents tempering then it's only logical to assume any sundered echo wielder also has the Blessing.

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With respect, I disagree that this assumption is logical. Venat tells us that her traveller's ward prevents aetheric corruption, which means it prevents tempering; that's not the same as it being the only thing that prevents tempering. We've seen plenty of other means to prevent tempering, including radios and alchemically infused dragon scales. Multiple things can have the same effect.

At the very least, the Heavensward writers claimed that the Echo prevented tempering. They even had Y'sthola — a character who has always been a reliable source of information and has never been framed as wrong about any lore/science/world-building she's said — be one of the characters to express it.

Ysayle (talking about the WoL fighting Ravanna): "Wait. Forename need not face this foe alone. Like him, I am blessed with the Echo's protection, and may do battle without fear of primal influence. Let me bear this burden."

Y'shtola (talking to about Krile and WoL entering Sephirot's priosn): "Indeed. Given the nature of our adversary, none save those under the aegis of the Echo should be permitted to enter the containment facility. The risk of primal influence is too great."

Using Occam's Razor, I feel like it makes sense to trust the writers' words that the Echo protects against tempering; that explains why everyone with the Echo — from the WoL to Ysayle to Arvenald to Fordola to Zenos to Fandaniel — can't be tempered with a single elegant stroke, without making any assumptions about who also has the Blessing of Light or who has some other special case that we have to make further assumptions about.

Though honestly, the more I research this, the less clear it becomes. In reality life is complex, but when it comes to good writing and world-building, a debate like this shouldn't be necessary. We can probably try to define what the Echo and the Blessing of Light are, but more true than any of those definitions is that over the course of FF14's history, various writers at various times have had different, perhaps even contradictory ideas about what the Echo and Blessing of Light are. And the result is that the text we are left with is convoluted and confusing because there isn't just one truth, there are several truths depending on where you're looking.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Though honestly, the more I research this, the less clear it becomes. In reality life is complex, but when it comes to good writing and world-building, a debate like this shouldn't be necessary. We can probably try to define what the Echo and the Blessing of Light are, but more true than any of those definitions is that over the course of FF14's history, various writers at various times have had different, perhaps even contradictory ideas about what the Echo and Blessing of Light are. And the result is that the text we are left with is convoluted and confusing because there isn't just one truth, there are several truths depending on where you're looking.

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The current interpretation for the most part falls in line with what writers set forth in Stormblood and ShB, and it appears to be what they intend to roll with going forward. ARR and Heavensward did a fairly poor job at drawing a line between the two in many cases. Stormblood began to make things a little clearer, after which ShB and EW continued on the course it laid out. In other words, we're probably supposed to be going off the current writing instead of looking back at all the early installment weirdness 1.0, ARR, and Heavensward were afflicted with.

I might also note Fordola and Zenos do not possess the Echo. Theirs are artificial, and they manifest far more powerfully than those of your typical Echo-bearer. What they have is referred to as Resonance. It may heavily resemble the Echo -- and indeed, it is meant to be a duplicate thereof -- but it is not, and it evidently does not come with the same set of limitations.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The Echo does not mean full access to abilities displayed by the ancients. As its name implies, it's little more than a faint echo of what its holders' past selves once wielded.

The unsundered Ascians retained most, if not all of their original power in this regard. Fragmented Ascians appeared to gain access to an abnormal amount of their former power after being "elevated." As for Zenos; his artificial Echo (at least before they seemingly partly walked it back in EW) seemed to be giving him many abilities beyond those present within a "natural" Echo, more specifically abilities we would typically attribute to Ascians.

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We do see someone with the "regular" Echo live on after death: the Sahagin priest that summons Leviathan, who gets killed and then moves over to another body, then attempts to do so again before being eaten by Leviathan Himself.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

There's also the matter of memories. It is suggested during the Eden storyline that a sundered Ascian taking on their ancient memories will become subject to Zodiark's tempering again, just as their past selves had been. Notably, all of the sundered Ascians we encounter (with the exception of Fandaniel) seem to be far more strongly affected by it than their unsundered counterparts.

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This is consistent with what we know of modern tempering as well, as people who are cured of tempering have to have their memories of their tempered time removed or suppressed to be free of the Primal's influence. Memories and the suffusion of aspected aether are the main ingredients for tempering.