PLD and WAR shut out for the second Ultimate in a row

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Utilities matter. The amount of damage mitigation a tank's utility brings matters A LOT to a raid setting. If you think utility is completely worthless, then tell me how you mitigate raid-wides without utilities to shore up your defense and take the stress off healers.

It's also a matter of how that utility is best used, as well as the fight where it is used. You can try to match up comparable abilities against each other (Shake vs. Veil, HoL vs. DM) but when it comes to comparing a Shield to a % mitigation, it goes out the window when Magic is involved. If Physical Damage was more of a focus, then Shields would win out - so there is a balance to be struck in terms of design because this now reminds me of the whole PLD vs. DRK controversy when WAR was in a 100% Guaranteed spot similar to how DRK is now.

We had "Flavor of the Month" PLD or DRK back in Heavensward, namely when the raid boss for the patch was either Physical or Magical. In our current case we are never going to give up DRK because they are top damage, provide excellent self-mitigation, and have raid utilities to provide in terms of raw mitigation, both single and raid-wide. This then leaves it to a question: Does the fight involve Magical Raid-wide Damage? If it does, bring GNB for an extra raid-wide mitigation and more damage. If not, then either still pick GNB because damage or pick PLD/WAR for more survivability through shields. That's basically where we're at right now.

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If utility mattered people would bring PLD for everything because it still has the best raid wide defensive with Passage of Arms and veil, while DRK and GNB have clones of the same skill that only do 10% to magic specifically.

But they don't matter, every tank HAS to be able to clear it so its not like they're going to make mechanics only PLD can do, as a result damage wins, and as a result to that Utility is worthless compared to damage, because every tank more or less needs to fill the exact same role in every fight.

And honestly nothing about Endwalker's homogenized slog of fight design will allow things to be any different.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If utility mattered people would bring PLD for everything because it still has the best raid wide defensive with Passage of Arms and veil, while DRK and GNB have clones of the same skill that only do 10% to magic specifically.

But they don't matter, every tank HAS to be able to clear it so its not like they're going to make mechanics only PLD can do, as a result damage wins, and as a result to that Utility is worthless compared to damage, because every tank more or less needs to fill the exact same role in every fight.

And honestly nothing about Endwalker's homogenized slog of fight design will allow things to be any different.

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If you've played PLD at a High Level in Savage, you would know how hard it actually is to use Passage properly. Veil provides a heal and a shield, but that shield only amounts to 10% of Max HP, which at this point would be about circa 7800 in BiS with food. The value of the heal tends to be overheal if you are pre-shielding for a mechanic, but it has value for multi-hit raid-wides.

Every tank also HAS cleared it, if you even bothered to look at the statistics I posted. The only difference is that every comp that has had either a WAR or a PLD has also had a GNB or a DRK. 100%. There haven't been any clears with WAR/PLD yet.

I'd love to hear how often Passage is used in a fight when it's a 2 minute while not sacrificing damage in your rotation.

Well if your argument is "passage isn't worth using because you can't do damage while its up" then yeah thats exactly my point isn't it?

Damage is King.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Veil provides a heal and a shield, but that shield only amounts to 10% of Max HP, which at this point would be about circa 7800 in BiS with food.

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Divine Veil is 10% of the PLD's HP (~10.8k), which puts it roughly on par with unbuffed Shake It Off for non-tanks (Veil is slightly stronger than unbuffed Shake for healers/casters).

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If utility mattered people would bring PLD for everything because it still has the best raid wide defensive with Passage of Arms and veil, while DRK and GNB have clones of the same skill that only do 10% to magic specifically.

But they don't matter, every tank HAS to be able to clear it so its not like they're going to make mechanics only PLD can do, as a result damage wins, and as a result to that Utility is worthless compared to damage, because every tank more or less needs to fill the exact same role in every fight.

And honestly nothing about Endwalker's homogenized slog of fight design will allow things to be any different.

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They're not saying utility is everything, they're saying that it does have a factor. Paladins could of had amazing damage yet they still wouldn't of been taken because their short CD mitigation didn't work on bleeds and stuns and they had one less defensive cooldown overall, not when you got Dark Knight that has both good damage and good cooldowns. Why bring a tank that cannot even properly tank when you could just bring another DPS instead?

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Originally Posted by Curisu

This..
PLD and WAR are not weak.
DRK is just way to strong.
If a adjustment is needed then it is a nerf of DRK, or buff of the other 3 tanks.

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I'm expecting a DRK damage nerf tbh. All the tanks are pretty strong, but if DRK is being chosen more than it needs to be brought down, or at least that's how the devs will likely see it. Though personally I think DRK is only considered strong right now because TOP is a magic fight. If it was a physical fight, DRK would likely not be taken since both Dark Mind and Dark Missionary would be useless, limiting its ability to tank there.

I checked the Excel sheets site for all clears so far a day or two ago.

Every single group that cleared had a DRK as tank.

PLD, WAR were even and GNB had just a few more clears.
Dmg no.2 was WAR with about 100dps less then DRK.

DRK is the strongest in all 3 DMG categories.

The other tanks are not to weak, DRK is just, across the board, to strong.

By looking stats on savage runs, DRK is not far away from others in terms of raw dommages, so maybe there is some other explanation could kick in ? Here is my guests :
- DRK used to be strong since 6.0. Even if others tanks got buffed multiple time to make them more par with the DRK, few people would change for something not better, just in par.
- DRK got a unique set of mitigation very different from others. TBN is an unmatch mitigation tool across all tanks, and it works well with others tanks short cd which got mitigation % and sustain.
- Dark Mind, a Rempart like on 60s is probably too strong.

However, even if the DRK is more popular, with recent changes, no others tanks fall far behind, from the moment no job is banned from PF/Static, I think the state is fine, as a meta always and will always exist.

https://youtu.be/WUKBTaW69eY

Omega Ultimate clear as Warrior,

Your Argument is invalid.

As far as I can see, PLD and WAR are very good choices, DRK is just slightly overtuned but to no harm.
Gunbreaker just shines in phase 4 and 6 but considering phase 1, 2 and 3 are phases with a tight DPS check that can snowball into the next phase, you're much safer with a WAR/PLD/DRK than a GNB.

PLD is slightly undertuned, that I can agree.
But WAR is very good, it's not DRK but DRK is just slightly too good at the moment.