Is 2 melee 1 caster 1 ranged going to be just expected from now on?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

...

---

But you've proved my point, though. That 'flex' raid spot is never going to go to a ranged player as long as casters have anything to say about it, because they think that they're just better as a subgroup. But by rights, all jobs should have rdps parity, because nobody wants to invest time into mastering a scuffed job. And if players keep shouting that a particular job deserves to be superior to others because it is so much more difficult, you know what SE's response to that is always going to be. The ever desired 'rework'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

It's worth remembering that the way that we evaluate dps has changed since early Stormblood. Historically, your dps contribution was your own dps. So when DRG provided a 100% uptime damage buff to ranged, that permanently belonged to the ranged, not to the DRG that provided it. It's also worth remembering that the entire 'bow caster/gun caster' philosophy of Heavensward was built to offset the complaint that 'casters' had to do more work.

---

Even back then though, total raid DPS was higher running with double melee double phys ranged, or it wouldn't have been / popular. rDPS and aDPS change how DPS is distributed among the team, but it does not change the total damage the whole raid wound up doing at the end of the day.

Quote:

---

The delineation between physical and magical ranged dps benefits casters, not physical ranged. If you eliminated it and merged ranged into a single category, you'd have no way of justifying why a spellcaster should do more damage than a physical ranged because they'd all be members of the same group.

---

The delineation between the three types of DPS benefits both phys ranged and casters, because without that 1% buff both groups would be hotly abandoned in the current meta. Drop the distinction between casters and phys ranged, phys ranged would be gone from the meta; drop the distinction between phys ranged and casters but buff phys ranged to caster (read: BLM, because SMN and RDM already do phys ranged tier damage) damage, then casters would vanish but for the enthusiasts who already have shining resumes as casters.

Drop the delineation between phys and magic, and add casting to the phys ranged a la HW? We'd be getting somewhere at that point. I do have to say I love this portrait of "the evil oppressive privileged casters" though; we do just exist to keep the phys ranged down don't we?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Drop the delineation between phys and magic, and add casting to the phys ranged a la HW? We'd be getting somewhere at that point. I do have to say I love this portrait of "the evil oppressive privileged casters" though; we do just exist to keep the phys ranged down don't we?

---

It's been a few months since I've gotten to blame the summoners.

So I'm going to blame the summoners.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's been a few months since I've gotten to blame the summoners.

So I'm going to blame the summoners.

---

Big fair tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

...

---

There are two issues.

The first is that all dps jobs should be on a level playing field in terms of damage output. Everyone wants to feel like they're able to make an equal contribution to a team. Discriminating between the jobs on the basis of one job or role being supposedly 'easier' is going to make those jobs not fun to play. There's always room to play individual jobs on a much higher level than other players, but there's no point investing that effort in if the path you're going down is treated by the community as easier or inferior. If there's a genuine discrepancy, the answer is to adjust the difficulty, not the damage output.

The second is that there are two protected ranged spots, but only one protected melee spot. Differentiating between jobs as 'physical ranged' and 'magical ranged' is arbitrary. You could just as easily subdivide melee into 'physical melee' and 'magical melee' and guarantee a spot for each. It would also justify adding more melee jobs. Oh, there are only three physical melee jobs, perhaps we should add another. When we remove the arbitary physical/magical distinction, we can see that there are 5 melee jobs to 6 ranged.

When you look at fight design, you'll see that fights are specifically designed for two melee players and two ranged players. Turning one of those spots into a caster spot gives you a lot more flexibility on spread mechanics. Most groups would move to three ranged and one melee in a heartbeat if there was no disadvantage for doing so, and we've seen that in the past.

But as things stand, that flex spot isn't going to go from melee to 'ranged'. It's going to go specifically from melee to casters, because casters treat physical ranged like second class citizens. It's the 'easymode' ranged role. It's the 'support-orientated' ranged role. And that's perception is a serious problem.

Again, I want to see all jobs on a level playing field across the board, because then player skill reigns over job selection. But I don't think giving casters the advantage of having an extra slot dedicated to them is the answer. And it most certainly will go to them, as things stand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

There are two issues.

The first is that all dps jobs should be on a level playing field in terms of damage output. Everyone wants to feel like they're able to make an equal contribution to a team. Discriminating between the jobs on the basis of one job or role being supposedly 'easier' is going to make those jobs not fun to play. There's always room to play individual jobs on a much higher level than other players, but there's no point investing that effort in if the path you're going down is treated by the community as easier or inferior. If there's a genuine discrepancy, the answer is to adjust the difficulty, not the damage output.

---

You're preaching to the choir a bit here on "difficulty should not equal damage output." I don't necessarily agree that phys ranged should be the weaker faux supports they're relegated to being, but me saying that runs a bit contrary to me treating phys ranged like second class citizens I guess. Most people would have tried to counter my jab about you painting casters as a privileged oppressive class; I respect you for powering through and accepting that role, if for nothing else.

Quote:

---

The second is that there are two protected ranged spots, but only one protected melee spot. Differentiating between jobs as 'physical ranged' and 'magical ranged' is arbitrary. You could just as easily subdivide melee into 'physical melee' and 'magical melee' and guarantee a spot for each. It would also justify adding more melee jobs. Oh, there are only three physical melee jobs, perhaps we should add another. When we remove the arbitary physical/magical distinction, we can see that there are 5 melee jobs to 6 ranged.

---

Call it arbitrary all you like, SE is the one who made the designation. Not you or me. There's usually a clear difference in gameplay between casters and physical ranged as well; IE, the actual casting. If we were to melt the ranged into all one role, everyone should then have cast times. The way the 1% buffs have been allocated, you have room for 1 tank/1 heal/1 melee/1 phys ranged/1 caster/1 flex; whether that flex goes to caster or phys ranged I don't really care, as long as it's not always locked into 2m/1r/1c.

Quote:

---

When you look at fight design, you'll see that fights are specifically designed for two melee players and two ranged players. Turning one of those spots into a caster spot gives you a lot more flexibility on spread mechanics. Most groups would move to three ranged and one melee in a heartbeat if there was no disadvantage for doing so, and we've seen that in the past.

---

And yet despite that, of the ranged classes we have at least two (RDM and DNC) who very frequently need to be in melee range for a variety of reasons; melee combo, dance proximity, and of course hitting the party with raidwide buffs. These happening frequently during bursts means that, actually, ranged need to be able to find ways to be in melee during some of the highest apm sections of the fight, especially when those are often the times a ton of mechanics start getting belted out. Centaur First for p8s part 1 for instance would see needing to get embo and melee combo rolling for quite a bit of time during a mechanic that at first glance sees 4 melee and 4 range safe spots.

Not to mention that BLM, when it takes the flex spot, very frequently takes the melee spot itself just because the melees tend to need to move less which behooves a BLM pretty well.

Quote:

---

But as things stand, that flex spot isn't going to go from melee to 'ranged'. It's going to go specifically from melee to casters, because casters treat physical ranged like second class citizens. It's the 'easymode' ranged role. It's the 'support-orientated' ranged role. And that's perception is a serious problem.

---

As things stand, it would go specifically to Black Mage, because again, there's no real damage distinction between RDM, SMN, BRD, DNC, and MCH.

Quote:

---

Again, I want to see all jobs on a level playing field across the board, because then player skill reigns over job selection. But I don't think giving casters the advantage of having an extra slot dedicated to them is the answer. And it most certainly will go to them, as things stand.

---

You're picking awful weird fights on the forums if that's your goal. I don't disagree with the idea on the merits of it, but I stand by what I said earlier: mixing phys ranged and casters into a single role as things are now would be a cluster.

SOON OUR CHANGES AS COME ON THE 1ST NOVEMBER. In before 50 potencies for all casters and physical ranged dps. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

SOON OUR CHANGES AS COME ON THE 1ST NOVEMBER. In before 50 potencies for all casters and physical ranged dps. :cool:

---

Wo wo wo. That is being too genius. 5 would be most likely with SE track record lately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

Based off boss arena designs for savage, the devs have admitted that ranged tax, though, isn't really much of a thing these days. Most bosses have hit boxes so large that only very rarely do melee jobs have to disengage from the bosses, and even then only for maybe 1 GCD. So to that end, the did announce that they're going to be adjusting job damage to reduce or possibly eliminate the ranged tax in the next patch. Remains to be seen what they think the appropriate discrepancy is.... but I would say that casting and melee jobs should be about even for damage with ranged being maybe just slightly behind for those few instances where they do have to go where other jobs would either have to adjust swifts or lose casts or disengage. Maybe balance ranged to the damage level of a melee who sometimes misses positionals or a caster who stops casting for movement phases rather than using instant casts to reward the other jobs for good planning

---

I think Black Mage is way more "difficult" to position and optimize for bosses then samurai so I do think BLM generally should actually be a tiny bit ahead of Samurai, a lot of groups also have to play more around the BLM.

Samurai (and other melees) are generally more confined to the boss, but in general every change has made it more easier and easier, the SHB ranged tax was even a bit too much imo.

I generally think phys ranged should do a little less then melee/casters, I think all phys ranged should 1. offer some strong utility 2. Offer good damage that the "1% buff", isn't why they're picked

I think the major issue comes with if we ignore the 1% rule pretended it didn't exist, we could possibly see 3 (even 4? I'm not 100%) melees (this heavily depends on the fight don't get me wrong), even if they lose uptime, You would never bring a phys ranged either you'd likely want 3 Melees / 1 Summoner or 2 Melees / 1 Smn / 1 Blm depending on how the fight is designed for melees, It's barely worth it to bring a phys ranged outside of "1% buff"

It feels like the only current purpose of bringing a Phys ranged is "you give 1%" Casters are similar but with something like blm at least it does ok damage (not enough by a long shot) SMN gives better Utility and is more free for movement then most casters.

Melee are so strong right now, I don't feel like the "1% buff" fixes the imbalance between roles, don't get me wrong I actually think it's a ok failsafe, incase any role type (like phys ranged) becomes useless without it, but I would generally want all "DPS" to output way closer then they do, the 4th dps slot should always be free in my opinion, not a expected double melee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

SOON OUR CHANGES AS COME ON THE 1ST NOVEMBER. In before 50 potencies for all casters and physical ranged dps. :cool:

---

I'm expecting a 10 potency buff for ranged

...to second wind that is

But seriously, I'm not expecting much, if I had to guess it would be a 1 or 2% increase across the board with dancer not getting buffed much, if at all.

SE prefers to treat physical ranged and casters (With the exception of BLM) like second class citizens so I'm expecting the potency changes to reflect that. I'd like to say that SE learned their lesson about treating ranged players badly, but that would be a pipe dream considering they still don't understand why people won't play healers.