Do we know what Azem did after leaving the convocation? In shadowbringers it is clearly stated that he defected but he never joined Venat and her group which means, could he be looking for a 3rd solution in which Emet had hopes for?
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10-08-2022, 10:48 AMRalphe2449
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10-08-2022, 11:37 AMEnkidoh
It was never explained alas - all we know is they resigned and the seat of Azem was never refilled, with the rest of the Convocation continuing on as normal. And their resignation was treated more as a betrayal, which is why the Convocation never made an actual memory crystal for Azem, regarding them as a traitor undeserving of their memories to be saved (essentially making them 'persona non gratia') meaning the WoL could never be hypothetically 'raised up' back to the seat of Azem as an Ascian even if they wanted to (Emet instead deciding to make a special one behind the Convocation's backs for his friend, filling it with their 'signature spell' of group teleportation to them instead of others' memories of them, and giving it to the reconstructed shade of Hythlodaeus in his Amaurot reconstruction to pass onto the WoL.).
My headcanon is that Azem refused to lay down though and took the third option which was continuing to do what they do best: travel the world helping people and fighting monsters, even without the power of the Convocation behind them. So I believe they probably continued to fight against the Terminus beasts and saving people from the disaster.
Furthermore, this is what I think the Amaurot dungeon in ShB actually was based on - as EW showed when the Final Days finally arrived in Amaurot, Emet didn't fight (and neither did Venat), all Emet did was stand out in the street talking to Hythlodaeus while the world went to hell around them, attempting to convince his "other old friend" not to join the initial sacrifices for Zodiark's summoning (and then probably teleported out to join the rest of the Convocation in the summoning rite), but during that he probably noticed Azem stubbornly fighting on, slaying Terminus beasts as they materialized and saving what victims they could. And thus, he wove that into the 'theme-park ride' of Amaurot's fall, basically rubbing the WoL's face into how poorly they measure up to his old friend.
Of course I have no actual proof of that, but it certainly fits. -
10-08-2022, 12:25 PMRyuDragnier
I'm still a fan of there being a bigger threat that Azem had to fight during the Zodiark/Hydaelyn fight ending in the Sundering. Something akin to FF7's Weapons, which were originally beings created by the planet itself to fight Jenova, except this one was likely on the lines of Omega Weapon (unlikely since we already have Omega), but more likely Zirconiade. For those who don't know Before Crisis: FF7, Zirconiade was an ultimate summon also known as the "World Burner", which essentially was a "reset button" that would annihilate all life to return it to the Lifestream allowing the planet to heal itself before starting over with new life. A summon so powerful that the planet itself had created another Weapon (Jade Weapon) to destroy it should it need to.
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10-08-2022, 01:32 PMClereticI've mentioned this so often I feel like I need to put a stock response in a Notepad file for easy copy-pasting, but: I'm fairly certain that we will never learn what Azem was up to, because Azem's nature as essentially the player-insert means that them actually weighing in on the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict, which is directly intended to be a situation with no easy right answer, would implicitly CREATE a right answer. It goes from 'both sides had their points and made hard decisions' to 'the choice The Hero made, and the people The Hero disagreed with'. Azem cannot weigh in on the argument, because their stance carries more weight than everyone else put together. This also remains true if they invent a third answer, or deliberately pick no answer; that then paints both pre-existing sides as 'the people The Hero disagreed with', and so they no longer really exist as positions in their own right; they then exist primarily in opposition to The Hero. Which, of course, also pisses off everyone who happened to agree with a different side to whatever they say The Hero did; I'm sure you wouldn't like it if they came down and said, for example, 'Azem actually completely agreed with Team Hydaelyn and just didn't respond because they were indisposed'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralphe2449
This actually happened pretty much exactly in the first sequel to Deus Ex, Invisible War (which, appropriate to its name, is largely forgotten). It's a sequel to the original, and the factions you can side with all having characters from the original game among them... with one of those characters being JC Denton, the original game's protagonist. When the original game's protagonist is the representative of one of the factions, then the others stop really existing as independent stances and start feeling like 'the other guys', because the default response feels like it should be to side with the old protagonist.
You see similar problems when an RPG adds a 'perfect', 'true' or 'golden' ending in a setting where otherwise every stance is imperfect; if the True Neutral ending in a Shin Megami Tensei game for example is just objectively the smartest choice, then it reduces the Law and Chaos sides from 'flawed but understandable and perhaps subjectively your preferred choice' (or with SMT perhaps more accurately 'insane, but reason has left the building and I find this view least objectionable') to just different flavors of wrong. -
10-08-2022, 07:08 PMSentioftheHoukaiIt's funny that you mention this, because a significant chunk of the fanbase are certain that somewhere down the line, perhaps even sometime soon this is precisely the outcome Square Enix is going to implement as the "canon" path and morality for Azem. The signs are all there, and the final nail in the crystal coffin would be welcomed by the vast majority of this game's fanbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-08-2022, 08:07 PMTehmon
If they wanted to be vague, they should've said that Azem just disappeared, never to be heard of again. Instead they specifically wrote them to OPPOSE Zodiark's summoning, and remain silent regarding the plan of sundering/summoning Hydaelyn. So it feels a bit silly to now essentially say '' Azem was doing what the player wanted to and we can't really reveal anything on the matter (yet?) because it might upset some people '' when you've already made it very clear that Azem did not support the convocation and Zodiark's summoning. Pick a lane, please.
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10-08-2022, 08:48 PMLyth
Azem is tricky to write in general because players are fiercely protective of their characters. I'm actually surprised at the liberties that they took with Azem during Tales of the Shadows. Not that I'm complaining, being fully supportive of a trickster rabbit backstory, and I'm sure Emet's popularity got quite a boost by facepalming over Azem's antics with Hyth giggling in the background.
You're always going to find some people who that concept doesn't mesh well with. Which is why, I suspect, Venat ended up being the resident mischief-maker on the Elpis team instead, with the player character having the option to play either more heavily or less heavily into that. I do hope that Azem has at least a cameo in the final part of Pandaemonium, because I really do want to see Elidibus' interaction with them. There are a few open plot references dangling from 5.3 as well as the 'truth' that fills Elidibus' heart just before he sends you to Elpis, and I want to see if anything is to be done with them. -
10-08-2022, 09:18 PMClereticI think 'disappeared' would actually be even more suspicious than Azem basically just opting out. If they disappeared that'd appear to us as an active mystery to solve, that looks like something happened to them, whereas 'left the Convocation, wasn't heard from/talked about after' could just mean that they went on a fishing trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tehmon
I think they want to avoid leaving a plot hook that big. I don't know what they plan to do with Azem (it has to be something we haven't seen, because right now all they're doing is adding unnecessary complications), but I feel like they're well aware at this point that not every planned story that they leave hooks for actually happens; Save the Queen is probably still quite fresh in their minds. They know how much people care about Azem, and the worst thing they could do with everyone's hopes is to get them up only to not actually follow up on them, so the best thing they could do probably is to have them be a fairly quiet presence. It lets people speculate without outright saying any level of 'this is gonna be a thing'. -
10-09-2022, 12:54 AMTehmonI mean didn't Azem kind of disappear in the current story as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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10-09-2022, 01:42 AMRyuDragnier
Yoshi-P did say that he knew what Azem was doing. I have a sneaking suspicion it'll either play into the final part of Pandaemonium, or it shall be a subplot for the next big arc of the game's story (possibly with us seeing bits of pieces of Azem's past as it moves forward). Slowly writing a canon for Azem while keeping it open ended enough to where people are still able to push their character into the role.