PVP PLD Cheese Problem

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You will still get a reward for second and third place in Frontlines, regardless of how you perform.

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Also, the mount achievements say hi.

Why the hell we need alot of team efforts and communication only to kill a PLD?

Where's old ShB Onsal that we just go oogah boogah kill people get ovoo?? :(

Sadly I dont think anything will happen to it. SE will do some pvp changes but keep it since they are sticking with it is working as attend.

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Originally Posted by zabu

I used to love play frontline a lot, enjoy collaborate with other people to achieve some goal, heal people, rescue over extend people, burst people down, get exp, and farm some tomes.
I need to admit I do not like new pvp skill at all, and until today, I tried my first frontline in onsal with new pvp skill. I can not believe how PLD can just cheese with tank lb while capturing the flag. I really feel hopeless when 6 PLD just walk into the flag you are trying to defend and BOOM! PLD go it and you can not do anything at all. My perspective on frontline is really strategic as long as people people are willing to collaborate or listen to call out. But now, is like crap.
SE, can you please tell me how does this make frontline more fun?
I assume seal rock might be the same case? Hope someone can tell me about it
Please SE fix this... I won't play frontline until they fix this bug.

By the way, I also love the intensive healing that old healer has, buffing, debuffing, healing, rescuing, positioning, and how people have mind set need to protect healer. But now.....everyone has healing ability?!!! does that mean healer need to be glare machine same as PVE?

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Since a number of people, particularly AnotherPerson, have already gone over gone over how the Paladin tactic can be countered, I thought I would speak to your first point because it has been largely skipped over.

I would say that with the exception of rescuing other people, you can do all of that on the current WHM in PVP. You will do it differently from the past, and you will not be spamming heals but getting heals by damage spells, or via your LB. You are a support job. Each healer is a support job, You have also one of the most (arguably) annoying CCs in PVP. That can let you support your teammates very effectively (or yourself). AST is also a strong support, with its cards, CC, and LB, where it can be argued that for example SGE is more of a DPS in PVP even though it has utility.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Why the hell we need alot of team efforts and communication only to kill a PLD?

Where's old ShB Onsal that we just go oogah boogah kill people get ovoo?? :(

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still there actually xD

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Why the hell we need alot of team efforts and communication only to kill a PLD?

Where's old ShB Onsal that we just go oogah boogah kill people get ovoo?? :(

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Agree, this is what i mean, it is casual content..... is not pvp frontline savage.
People do not understand coordinate 24 people where to go in frontline is already tough, coordinate what they should do?!! are you dreaming?

Well if we’re jumping on paladin let’s jump on all melee. They are all ridiculously tough to kill now. Playing melee is the current cheese in frontlines.

"Melee are overpowered in frontlines."
Meanwhile, MCH: "Hehe delete button go brrr"

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Skill Issue.

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Was restricted to my phone for quite a while, and didn't feel like typing a huge post responding to your huge post back there using my sausage fingers on a tiny phone screen.

Well thought-out post that describes quite respectfully how to deal with the issue. You're clearly coming from a helpful place, and it's genuinely appreciated, I did read through the whole thing. As far as I read, you're not really condoning or condemning the pld cheese existing in the first place (unless I misremember, it's quite late in the evening at this point and my head's not all there) it would be disingenuous to claim any kind of "defense" for the cheese existing. You've identified a problem and offered solutions to solving it, simple as.

So not gonna really refute anything you've stated. Even the quote above, the "skill issue" rings somewhat true.
The bottom line of my own argument remains however, is that this kind of absolute trashy nonsense mechanic has no right to exist. I have no numbers to back up my claim here, but I don't think it's a far stretch to assume that the vast majority of an FL team is not going to go to these lengths to shut down a paladin and their buddy. In fact I dare be so bold as to claim they wouldn't even know how to. They jump in, and either play a bit for fun, or to get their daily roulette done.
And, anecdotally, what they experience when they queue into Onsal, is a non-stop clown show of seemingly invincible pld cheese that chain caps nodes all over the place and leads to devastatingly unfair victories. Anecdotally, it's genuinely driving people away from that whole frontline. Myself, my SO, and several members of my FC among them, as well as quite a few randoms I've seen claiming in the /a chat that they're just done with the place. Whether they stick to their word, who knows, but I do take their statements at face value.

It's a strategy that warps the entire FL. It's so prevalent that the whole experience of Onsal is leaving a genuinely sour taste in peoples' mouths. I've seen again and again comments like "Well gg, we didn't have pld to cheese with", or "this was my fave FL and now it sucks" and many other, less kindly worded messages.
Do these people simply need to "git gud?" I'd argue they could collectively start training to become hugely better at the game and start dominating through superior strategy and leet skills, but is that a realistic scenario at all? More likely than that is that they'll simply avoid the FL because it's gimmicky and feels horrible.
(char limit, second post inc)

cont.d:

The "get better at killing their team and dominate through BH" tip rubbed me the wrong way in general to be honest. It doesn't take many people to pld cheese. The rest of the team will often be playing normally, being just as into killing you as you are into killing them. What happens if 2 teams are equally good at the killing part, but one of them happens to spam pld cheese at every node?
As I stated earlier, the abuse won't win the game by itself, but if you're going to compete in a foot race it sure helps to bring a motorbike, amirite?
And in this metaphor Yoshi-p and co are the judges going "Yeah one or two of the teams are just using their legs to run, but we decided using a motorbike is not against the rules so gg."
The cheese has a tendency to work, and not get countered. So if two approximately equally skilled teams clash, the one that also abuses pld the hardest comes out on top. And though our mileage may vary, I've rarely seen a third team being involved making much of a difference. Oftentimes because of simply poor decisions from one or two of the non-cheesing teams.
And I've rarely, if even ever, seen anyone trying to rally people through /a chat and coming up with strategies actually being listened to.
Maybe the US and EU server are just different in that regard though, I wouldn't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say with my nonsensical rambling is:
The cheese is a distasteful, unsportsmanlike, cheap, gimmicky, boring, and just thoroughly unlikeable mechanic that makes the game worse.
It has counters, but setting up those counters is a complicated, tedious chore that is almost guaranteed not to work with a group of randoms (anecdotally).
It can be botched, but I suspect that most cheesers work in coordinated teams of at least 2 people because I've seen it succeed almost unfailingly for entire days on end (gf was farming for 100 win mount, thank GOD she got it recently).
It can be made irrelevant by being incredibly superior in terms of battle prowess, but this requires your team (or both other teams if only one team is cheesing and they both pick up on it and get ticked off by it) to consist of better players than the cheesers. And even then, a bad team can get carried, or semi-carried at the very least, by this abuse. As previously stated I've seen teams just absolutely slingshot their way from a losing position to casually strolling through victory through suddenly hardcore cheesing with 6-7 paladins on their team.

TL;DR:
Unfun garbage. Not entering Onsal again. Bai. But thank you for the civil discussion.