Endwalker's Graha Tia: A Character Rewrite

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I'd encourage you to read the rest of the post. He's with the party for the entirety of Endwalker's 6.0 MSQ. I wrote him out of the patch quests to establish that he's capable of going on his own adventures between expansions/patch quests, but that we're still able to contact him via linkpearl. (I don't believe there were echo visions of Graha until a little further on in the rewrite, we primarily use linkpearls to contact him in the 5.x patch quest rewrites) But regardless of if you do read the rest, thank you for at least reading the first few portions of it.

When I say this I don't mean any disrespect, but I didn't think you'd like it, primarily based on a conversation we've had on the forums in the recent past. That's not to say I made the thread to spite you or anything, but I figured that seeing as you have your ideal Graha in the official game, I could partake in a small fun writing exercise and share what my ideal Graha would be. (assuming his story didn't end in 5.3, that would be my ideal)

---

Yeah of course. I was curious of what you thought needed to improve about him, which is why I started to read it. But reading more just made me upset because it was far beyond what I love about him as a character officially.

Like I said, everyone has their own taste. Not everyone is gonna like the official version of a character, but there are some who do. Which is what I wish people would consider when they go around on forum bashing the character in threads that don't even mention him at first. I mean, I know some people love Emet-Selch or Zenos or whatever, but I don't go around saying they're bad characters for the things they did like what other groups seem to do about Hydaelyn 90% of the time in every single post...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Which is what I wish people would consider when they go around on forum bashing the character in threads that don't even mention him at first. I mean, I know some people love Emet-Selch or Zenos or whatever, but I don't go around saying they're bad characters for the things they did like what other groups seem to do about Hydaelyn 90% of the time in every single post...

---

You mean like exactly what people did anytime people brought up the Garleans or the Ascians? It's interesting how it's suddenly a problem when it's the mother goddess figure being criticised for her brutal and horrific campaign of eugenics and genocide.

Maybe, just maybe, the game should not have had a 'Burning of Teldrassil' moment in the story if it didn't want a 'Burning of Teldrassil' style reaction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Yeah of course. I was curious of what you thought needed to improve about him, which is why I started to read it. But reading more just made me upset because it was far beyond what I love about him as a character officially.

Like I said, everyone has their own taste. Not everyone is gonna like the official version of a character, but there are some who do. Which is what I wish people would consider when they go around on forum bashing the character in threads that don't even mention him at first. I mean, I know some people love Emet-Selch or Zenos or whatever, but I don't go around saying they're bad characters for the things they did like what other groups seem to do about Hydaelyn 90% of the time in every single post...

---

People are free to like whatever characters they please. Others are just as free to dislike those same characters. I don't like when people go on and on about how much they like Graha, but it is their right to do just that, and that is totally fine. I just happen to fall on the opposite side of that, and I have no problem with voicing my displeasures. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

You mean like exactly what people did anytime people brought up the Garleans or the Ascians? It's interesting how it's suddenly a problem when it's the mother goddess figure being criticised for her brutal and horrific campaign of eugenics and genocide.

Maybe, just maybe, the game should not have had a 'Burning of Teldrassil' moment in the story if it didn't want a 'Burning of Teldrassil' style reaction.

---

When you know it is something you will never agree with, but keep bringing it up anyway just to argue is when it becomes an issue. Every thread you need to stink up with trying to convince others who have a different opinion than you that the story sucks and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

People are free to like whatever characters they please. Others are just as free to dislike those same characters. I don't like when people go on and on about how much they like Graha, but it is their right to do just that, and that is totally fine. I just happen to fall on the opposite side of that, and I have no problem with voicing my displeasures. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

---

People only bring up they like him when you start bashing him. You act like your opinion is the only one that matters. And to be honest, it's pretty childish to want to reply to every person who says they like him with "well I think he sucks, so nyah!" At this point, you're just doing it to taunt or be a troll. And this is why no meaningful conversations can ever be had with people who have different opinions than you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

When you know it is something you will never agree with, but keep bringing it up anyway just to argue is when it becomes an issue. Every thread you need to stink up with trying to convince others who have a different opinion than you that the story sucks and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is the issue.

---

Who has stated that anyone who likes the story isn't entitled to their own opinions?

From what I've seen, people are encouraged to come to their own conclusions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

When you know it is something you will never agree with, but keep bringing it up anyway just to argue is when it becomes an issue. Every thread you need to stink up with trying to convince others who have a different opinion than you that the story sucks and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That is the issue.



People only bring up they like him when you start bashing him. You act like your opinion is the only one that matters. And to be honest, it's pretty childish to want to reply to every person who says he likes him with "well I think he sucks, so nyah!" At this point, you're just doing it to taunt or be a troll. And this is why no meaningful conversations can ever be had with people who have different opinions than you.

---

My opinion isn't the only one that matters, and I have never claimed otherwise. Do I feel strongly about my opinion on this subject? Absolutely. But I will never claim that my opinions are indeed facts. I was also being civil in explaining the logic behind my posts, as well as attempting to explain to you that there are two sides to this, but you went ahead and escalated it for...reasons, I guess? You're the one who came into a thread about Graha criticism in the first place. If anyone isn't open to other opinions here, it is clearly yourself. Your original post that sparked our conversation was reasonable enough. My response was just as reasonable. Suddenly this makes me a taunting troll? Please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

My opinion isn't the only one that matters, and I have never claimed otherwise. Do I feel strongly about my opinion on this subject? Absolutely. But I will never claim that my opinions are indeed facts. I was also being civil in explaining the logic behind my posts, as well as attempting to explain to you that there are two sides to this, but you went ahead and escalated it for...reasons, I guess? You're the one who came into a thread about Graha criticism in the first place. If anyone isn't open to other opinions here, it is clearly yourself. Your original post that sparked our conversation was reasonable enough. My response was just as reasonable. Suddenly this makes me a taunting troll? Please.

---

I replied to the OP in a respectful manner and you replied to my post about disliking him and hate how people go on and on and on about liking him when I have not seen that anywhere, so yes...that is troll-y behavior. I was addressing OP only, but you had to always put in your two cents. I wasn't the one who escalated it, you were.

Anyway, I'm done. This thread is for OP's fanfic, so if you want to make another thread about G'raha dislike, label it accordingly, say your peace with like minded people and others will stay clear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

I replied to the OP in a respectful manner and you replied to my post about disliking him and hate how people go on and on and on about liking him when I have not seen that anywhere, so yes...that is troll-y behavior. I was addressing OP only, but you had to always put in your two cents. I wasn't the one who escalated it, you were.

---

You are twisting my post and my words into something it isn't. Get over yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Anyway, I'm done.

---

Thank the Twelve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Yeah of course. I was curious of what you thought needed to improve about him, which is why I started to read it. But reading more just made me upset because it was far beyond what I love about him as a character officially.

---

I don't mean to use the 'you have to read till the end to criticize something' card as I'm not usually a fan of that, but you've only read the parts where he's not really too involved. You've read the set up but not the payoff. It's fine if you don't like it, but I don't think it's really fair to say that he's "far beyond what I love about him as a character officially" when he hasn't really been a part of the story just yet. In addition, you mentioned an echo vision about Graha? That doesn't happen until the mid-section of the rewrite, (which you didn't get to as that would invalidate your critique about Graha not being present) and we contact him through the use of linkpearls until he rejoins us in 5.5. I'd recommend reading it through again, I think it might be possible that you didn't read it thoroughly.

Again, it's fine if you don't like it, I honestly didn't think you would, but I think that if you're going to critique it, you should give at least the sections you did get through so far a more thorough read.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Like I said, everyone has their own taste. Not everyone is gonna like the official version of a character, but there are some who do. Which is what I wish people would consider when they go around on forum bashing the character in threads that don't even mention him at first.

---

My focus was less on subjective tastes and more on making Graha an objectively better character. Now that's not to say you're not allowed to dislike this new version as you are entitled to your own opinion and taste, but my goal was never to stay 100% true to the character as his current character is what's wrong with him. My goal was to improve him on an objective level by making him a deeper and evolving character, rather than a static and stagnant one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

lbut I don't go around saying they're bad characters for the things they did ike what other groups seem to do about Hydaelyn 90% of the time in every single post...

---

There's a big difference between calling a character out for their actions thus stating that character asmorally good or evil and then saying that a character is good or bad.
Graha is a morally good character. Emet is a morally gray character. Zenos is a morally evil character.
Graha is a bad character. Emet is a great character. Zenos is a mediocre character.

But if you wanna talk about Hydaelyn seeing as you brought it up, in my personal opinion, Hydaelyn isn't a bad character... as an antagonist. If Hydaelyn was written very similarly to how she was in the official story, but portrayed in a different light, I don't think most of the anti-Hydaelyn people would hate her as much as they do. This is because she has a very good character... but again, for an antagonist. The problem is that the story itself bends over backwards to make her the hero. Hearing about how great Hydaelyn is when we just saw her commit a act of great evil is not something that makes her likeable, but rather, hateable. It's the same reason why Hermes isn't likeable. Hermes is a man who unleashed great evil upon the universe, and upon discovering that he did, he endorses it. Now unlike Hydaelyn, the story allows Hermes to be a villain, which makes him a better character, but not more likeable, which isn't a problem as not every villain needs to be likeable.

(The following is from after I saw Kazemon's responses to everyone else)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Anyway, I'm done. This thread is for OP's fanfic, so if you want to make another thread about G'raha dislike, label it accordingly, say your peace with like minded people and others will stay clear.

---

What do you mean? This isn't a Graha dislike thread, it's a rewrite thread. A rewrite you never read if I had to wager. You got basic details about it wrong. There were a grand total of zero echo visions in the patch quest rewrites. Just linkpearl conversations. Come on Kazemon, I knew you wouldn't like the thread, but can you be anymore dishonest? You know this was a rewrite. You just didn't like it and now apparently it's a 'dislike thread'.

Apparently writing a rewrite for a character you don't particular like too much is making a 'dislike thread'. Good grief. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazemon15

No, I was telling the other guy to make his own thread about G'raha dislike if he wants to continue it, not stink up your thread with it. I'm sorry if that didn't come across well.

---

It didn't but thank you for clarifying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awesome

What do you mean? This isn't a Graha dislike thread, it's a rewrite thread. A rewrite you never read if I had to wager. You got basic details about it wrong. There were a grand total of zero echo visions in the patch quest rewrites. Just linkpearl conversations. Come on Kazemon, I knew you wouldn't like the thread, but can you be anymore dishonest? You know this was a rewrite. You just didn't like it and now apparently it's a 'dislike thread'.

Apparently writing a rewrite for a character you don't particular like too much is making a 'dislike thread'. Good grief. :rolleyes:

---

No, I was telling the other guy to make his own thread about G'raha dislike if he wants to continue it, not stink up your thread with it. I'm sorry if that didn't come across well.