*looks at the picture of the double funeral of Square and Enix sitting on the mantle*Quote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
Yeah, I've met SE...
Though at least back then everyone was openly calling it censorship, not "localizing", and it was the western versions that got censored but that's not surprising if you think about it. Same puritans, different crusade, lol.
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09-12-2022, 01:22 AMRaoabolic
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09-12-2022, 01:30 AMKazharThe idea that the English script is not a translation, and in fact a second master script with equal importance to the Japanese script and inherently superior to the two other translations is most likely a misconception caused by some quotes taken wildly out of context and misunderstood, then parroted ad nauseam by the community. No official source seems to support the claim. In fact, we have many interviews which disproves it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
Basically a case of "if enough people say something it becomes the truth". -
09-12-2022, 01:35 AMLaurontAgreed - I'm pointing to that comment by the user "volentils" because, as you say, the top one is at least a little misleading on that front.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
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09-12-2022, 01:40 AMMidareyukkiHonestly? I REALLY wouldn't put it past them if the texts that we end up with are dumbed down and have nuance altered to cater to the reader.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoabolic
Japanese is a context-heavy language, and English isn't as much, it's a lot more straightforward with minute cultural aspects changing the meaning of things.
But it is still possible to have a proper conversion into English, one just needs to clarify the text so audience can understand. Sometimes it doesn't work, but in translation there really is so much you can do.
Text in FF14 has been re-written, though. And scenes have had their emotional tone redefined. I'm not saying that DE or FR translations won't have moments that don't fully correspond to the original JP text. But neither of them are as noticeable as EN is. You still get the same meaning
And if the text does simplify scenes so the meaning is clearer, then you have to gauge what the team thinks based on occurrence. If it doesn't happen that often, then it's because it was likely tricky to translate from Japanese. If it happens often, then you have several reasons:
- Editor/Publisher's choice
- The team realized it was too nuanced and culturally heavy
- They're involved in making the product
Which they are, because:
The lead of the English localization team is directly involved in the creative writing aspect. He's in charge of making lore. Whether he used to be a grunt who rose to prominence doesn't exactly matter, because as it stands, he does have a hand in how things are written. And thus he can make "his own" version of the text.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
I realize now that saying that "it's his version" is a bit misleading, because I don't know how the dev team really feels about the whole thing, nor do I know if it's only him doing it and bossing others around. It very likely isn't.
But the liberty IS there. And we see the consequences of it on the text. -
09-12-2022, 01:49 AMRaoabolicYou are absolutely right, which is why I don't care to argue about this since the damage has been done. We can go forward and back all day discussing why or why not liberties should or should not be taken when translating and what defines the difference between translating a work vs localizing a work but this song and dance has been done to death for nearly a decade. Why strain yourselves? The writer isn't going to go to the NA's GD board, read this thread and go, "Oh no! I need to fix this!". Just enjoy it for what it is and leave when it's no longer worth your time, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
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09-12-2022, 02:07 AMMidareyukkiMy follow up to what you just said is to ask people who have such a problem that this is going on whether or not they can enjoy the product they are given. By all means, this is the product Square Enix agreed to present to you. The one that's won accolades, the one people praise to living hell and back, the one people meme with, the one people love. The one people compare to other games in the industry. The one people defend and analyze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoabolic
It's fine to want to enjoy the original product, I wholly understand and would even encourage it. But this isn't what you're getting. And if anything? What you're getting is already a really good approximation of the original, it's why I keep saying that it's the emotional tone and nuance that's changed. Not the characters and not the outcome. You want to experience the original Japanese version, either learn Japanese or have someone do a direct translation for you. You're not going to get that from this sort of localization.
But this is not something that needs fixing. It's something that needs to be understood. And the first time I posted about this, I got called out for by some Miqo'te dude because he wouldn't take the fact that he was trying to pin the blame on translators. They're just doing their job, and at least they're having fun with it because the devs allow and encourage it. Because god knows translation can be boring as hell and goes massively unappreciated by readers. People tend to blame translators for every little thing in the text, when really they themselves couldn't do better.
You may not like that this happens, and that's dandy. But you can still enjoy the product you're given. It's not as big a deal as you'd think, because to Square Enix, this is fine and you're still playing the same game JP is, just with some quirks. Did the 7th Umbral Calamity happen in your version as much as it did in JP's version? Just because one character cracks a joke in English and not in Japanese it doesn't make it bad. And like Raoabolic said, this has been happening for a decade now, it's nothing new. (edit, adding something for clarification bc I know people will definitely pick on it but) I know to a lot of people this feels like a violation, but you're not getting a bootleg of the game, nor are you getting such a drastically altered text. Preference aside, the game is the same.
Again, people want the original? Good, support the original text and other languages. But don't diss the work being done just because stuff got re-written. You're meant to experience X lore, not Y lore. -
09-12-2022, 02:19 AMSannaRThen I'm not sure why you're surprised that split keeps on happening. The NA continues to have a non 1:1 translation and localization while the European continues to get that 1:1 type of translation and localization. While also ending up being the port they use to make remasters of. As you can see with which versions they chose to go with when putting out the newest(er) versions of X and XII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoabolic
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09-12-2022, 02:26 AMMidareyukkiI think the reason they're so different, at least here in FF14, is because the localization teams for German and French aren't internal to Square Enix. They have to outsource other teams, and I doubt that Koji knows fluent French and German enough to manage them as he would the English version. It's also probably why the FR version had that gaffe in Rhalgr's Reach where an NPC's dialogue leaked Hrothgar were coming in Stormblood xDQuote:
Originally Posted by SannaR
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09-12-2022, 02:32 AMKazharThe German and French teams are internal to Square Enix. We have no indication they're managed differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Midareyukki
(It's not even hard to prove. Take any of the names in interviews we posted recently in this thread and you'll see LinkedIn pages which confirms they're currently Square Enix employees working directly in the Tokyo HQ. The idea that the other two translation are outsourced is based on nothing.) -
09-12-2022, 02:47 AMCachA very common occurrence on FF14 discourse, if I had a cent for every "Yoshi-P said"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazhar
Ah, thanks for saving me the effort of writing basically the same thing (English is not even my first language but it still pisses me off, lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Raoabolic