Why in the world did they change Jump > Mirage Dive?

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Originally Posted by Quyn

Woah. That one really surprises me. To me at lv 70+ DRG already felt like having as many, or more keys to regularly press, than nin, sam or monk.
I have had such a strong impression of this, that DRG felt like one of the busiest dps to me, due to having to spin so many different ogcds and buffs to align.

Perhaps this is because things line up more naturally on sam and nin, in neat 60sec/ 120 sec windows ?

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I think that what you're talking about here is action usage, as in actions per minute (apm). DRG is high apm at maximum level, although still below several jobs.

All of DRG's cooldowns are on multiples of 30, so as long as they are kept on cooldown, they will line up in 60 and 120s windows in a similar fashion to MNK or NIN.

It is true though that DRG is the only melee focused on oGCDs. In this regard, it's similar to DRK or GNB.

The devs did mention that they wanted to reduce the "stress" during burst windows, which means reducing the number of actions used during those. However, this is fixed by increasing Litany's duration. There's other jobs with busy 2-m windows and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because there's different jobs with different playstyles for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I think that what you're talking about here is action usage, as in actions per minute (apm). DRG is high apm at maximum level, although still below several jobs.

All of DRG's cooldowns are on multiples of 30, so as long as they are kept on cooldown, they will line up in 60 and 120s windows in a similar fashion to MNK or NIN.

It is true though that DRG is the only melee focused on oGCDs. In this regard, it's similar to DRK or GNB.

The devs did mention that they wanted to reduce the "stress" during burst windows, which means reducing the number of actions used during those. However, this is fixed by increasing Litany's duration. There's other job with busy 2-m windows and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because there's different jobs with different playstyles for everyone.

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Perhaps more specifically, I was referring to quantity of different apm. As far as I know, Nin has the highest apm. Yet on Nin, this doesnt bother me as much, as it seems spread between less different buttons and cds to track, as I perform the same sequence string, every 60 seconds. So once I have that sequence down, thats all i have to worry about.

I didnt feel that way when trying to understand the DRG endgame rotation. The actions are more varied and spread out. More things have to be aligned and considered it seemed.

I could as well be wrong with that assertion from a distance.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

Someone wrote a post about it here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5925792

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Just counting raw numbers of total abilities is completely meaningless. Even looking at that thread, you can see the person making the claim is counting extremely unimportant abilities. When someone is talking about button bloat, Leg Sweep is simply not equivalent to True Thrust or anything along those lines. You can have an extra 20 buttons placed in random locations around your screen and it doesn't matter in the least if they never need to be pressed.

If you look at actual parse data, DRG is generally at the top of the CPM list along with GNB. NIN, and to a lesser extent BRD, is usually above those but their CPM is inflated with shortened, repeated GCD abilities and high haste making them hard to compare to other jobs. If you actually play DRG you'll know that their ability usage is spread out greatly among the abilities that DRG has. That is to say, they do not have any abilities that simply get repeated very quickly to fill up the rotation. The real analysis, then, would be to look at the buttons that each job would ideally press in a 1-minute period and count the number of unique abilities. Given the high CPM of the job with the less frequent repeated usage of the abilities, I'm confident that DRG would be near, if not at, the very top of that list, marking them as having the highest actual button bloat.

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Originally Posted by Tarrick

I'm confident that DRG would be near, if not at, the very top of that list, marking them as having the highest actual button bloat.

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You're talking about action bloat, not button bloat. Button bloat is the number of actions to bind, action bloat is related to apm (actions per minute).

Apart from the weaponskill string, the buttons DRG presses the most are going to be NAS (3 per minute), GSK/HJ/MD (2 per minute), and WWT (2.4 per minute in full uptime).

What the developers want to change about the job is the amount of actions pressed during the 2-min burst but compared to ShB this mostly equals to 2-3 more actions: one Spineshatter Dive, one Wyrmwind Thrust, and one Life Surge (this is not always available in all 2-min bursts).

Finally, a job having higher apm than other jobs doesn't need to be a bad thing (see NIN, DRK, GNB, etc.), especially when there are plenty of jobs to choose from. There's a playstyle for every kind of player.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

You're talking about action bloat, not button bloat. Button bloat is the number of actions to bind, action bloat is related to apm (actions per minute).

Apart from the weaponskill string, the buttons DRG presses the most are going to be NAS (3 per minute), GSK/HJ/MD (2 per minute), and WWT (2.4 per minute in full uptime).

What the developers want to change about the job is the amount of actions pressed during the 2-min burst but compared to ShB this mostly equals to 2-3 more actions: one Spineshatter Dive, one Wyrmwind Thrust, and one Life Surge (this is not always available in all 2-min bursts).

Finally, a job having higher apm than other jobs doesn't need to be a bad thing (see NIN, DRK, GNB, etc.), especially when there are plenty of jobs to choose from. There's a playstyle for every kind of player.

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I am of the impression that he is referring to unique apm, rather than simple action bloat.
E.g., there is a large difference between having to press one ogcd, ten times a minute or ten different ogcds, each once in that minute.
The apm would be identical but the effort of reaching different keys, wouldn't.

That is also what I was comparing between DRG and nin. Both have similar apm, yet DRG has those actions spread between more keys to track and press.
Finally, life surge and lance charge are missing on your list of DRG buttons pressed per minute.

Could the skill clipping be solved by providing a mix of the transforming button and a Mirage Dive specific button, as we got "by accident" if we already had the skills on our hotbar when they first changed it?

I really liked having the merged button for how it laid out well on my PS4 controller – there was some deliberate redundancy in there with a few skills repeated across layers, but it meant I could have Nastrond always visible instead of only on one of my two main hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

there is a large difference between having to press one ogcd, ten times a minute or ten different ogcds, each once in that minute.
The apm would be identical but the effort of reaching different keys, wouldn't.

That is also what I was comparing between DRG and nin. Both have similar apm, yet DRG has those actions spread between more keys to track and press.

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In a 2-min burst, you'll press most of these after using your buffs as DRG: GSK/NAS, HJ, MD, DFD, SSD, WWT, STD, LS. That's 8 buttons

As a NIN, in a burst with Bunshin ready, you'll press after using your debuffs: Mudras of any combination (Hyosho, Raitons...), DWD, TCJ, Meisui, Bahavakacra, Raijus (there are cases in which you might want to use Forked Raiju, so that's an extra button to consider), Phantom Kamaitachi. That's 7-8 buttons.

The button number is mostly similar. I haven't included DRG's GCDs because they're always the same and fully fixed, and because the job is mainly oGCD centered. The amount of unique button presses is not very different from one job to the other and DRG's main rule is to just use everything on hard cooldown, especially GSK/HJ. There's no "thought" behind the job's GCDs besides Life Surge and not overcapping WWT, so again I fail to see the action bloat issue. The only "problem" DRG has in relation to "stress" during bursts is that Litany lasts 15s instead of 20s, and they gave us 2-3 more presses in 2-min bursts.

GNB and especially DRK feel way more stressful to me during their 2-min. GNB is closer to DRG in that sense because it has stuff to do between bursts, whereas DRK is mostly a 1-2-3 spam till the next 2-min with some action in the 1-min. Of course this is simplifying other aspects like getting a TBN proc and holding 9k mana for bursts, but the point is that DRG is more than adequate during and between bursts and is in line with how other "busy" jobs operate.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

Finally, life surge and lance charge are missing on your list of DRG buttons pressed per minute.

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Lance Charge is a buff you press once a minute like every other. Life Surge is mostly used once per minute, with some cases being twice. It is also an ability that is often not used during intense moments because it shows up either before or at the end of 2-min burst (with some exceptions) or mostly during 1-min bursts, which are lax.

Supposedly this was because of “player feedback”; the developers won’t cite which specific feedback or include any general data to back up that broad reason, but that’s their claim.

well again.. I had Jump > Mirage Dive in a macro years before made that change official and I disliked how they did it, which is why I was happy that I still could use independently because I had the Skill on my Hotbar before the change xD"

I switched to my DRG I didn't know they made high jump and mirage dive 2 buttons again. It worked so much better when it shared a button because when you play on a controller you can only have 16 skills. Dragoon had too many buttons to press really they should make them share a button again makes the game more playable.