Pipe Dreams: Gladiators, Paladins and Dark Knights

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You mean like what they most likely have been doing up until now? I doubt the 2.0 battle mechanics team sat around while the sound, art and animation teams worked their asses off to bring us those trailers. I like to think they've been hard at work to bring about whatever system they feel would best allow the multiple jobs to exist in-game.

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I assume they were working on the new mage class. which is sorely needed. no-one knows for sure what they've been working on.

And furthermore the damage formulas need a lot more work than class abilities right now. as that's really the root of most of our problems.

I'm sure they are doing exactly what you say: setting groundwork to allow multiple jobs to exist. HOWEVER what you have proposed does not improve the flow of transitioning GLA into a DD class. period.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You now sound like the crew that constantly asks why we have such "little" content and not 14 dungeons to support the level climb from 1-50 with varied loot and boss mechanics. The short answer is that it's stuff that's there to hold us over because the real game is coming when 2.0 launches. That they diluted GLA down to the bare bones to fit the tank role easily fits this MO because for a temporary/placeholder system like 1.0's, it's easier to balance and design a one-trick pony. It's cheaper, too.

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I know why we have so little content. everything now is just to hold us over.

i don't know how you got what you said from what I said...but..alright then.

i dont' think you know/remember what GLA used to be. it's GREATLY improved from it's original state. they didn't dilute it at all. if anything they allowed it to concentrate and turn it into a worthwhile class.

and if you want a one-trick-pony talk to BLM.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

So it's written in stone that every class has to use every ability it ever learns all the time in all situations? News to me.

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losing one or two abilities is one thing. Losing 5+ is another. you obsolete 5 abilities for your proposed drk at level 30 it's much worse at level 50. i still cannot understand why you insist this is a good idea. you refuse to explain it. i'm close to just not replying to this thread anymore. Please, get over yourself. it's not a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It's standard design for branching classes. You didn't see lv75 Shillien Knights using the dinky dagger strike they learned at lv18 because their skills are all sword and shield stuff. You didn't see lv80 Arms Warriors complaining about not being able to use Shield Wall or Shield Bash because his gameplay was entirely built around two-handers and abilities that involve two-handers. I'm applying that same principle in my suggestion.

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They are wanting to get away from this. they want all of your abilities to carry some meaning. It's like in FFXI where you had a bunch of WS that were totally useless.

again, i cannot understand why you think this is a good idea. this is the whole reason they have fire scale as you level. so you're not just spamming the highest level tier spell available.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Because this is how branching class design generally works. Once you start narrowing down on what your role is, certain abilities are better-used than others. I still don't get why DRK missing out on shield-based, tank-oriented abilities is the end of the world. Mind you, I never dismissed the possibility of more abilities per class being added once 2.0 hits.

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this is not done by obsoleting over half of your available abilities. branching builds off of existing framework. it doesn't slash and burn half of that frame work. the class acts as a foundation. if half of your foundation is rotten, it's a poor foundation. there's no way around that.

I want you to really, really look at your proposal and think about how the job would work.

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At level 50

Usable abilities that increase damage output:

Fast Blade

2 Rampart

4 Phalanx

6 Defensive Focus: Guarantees one shield block if equipping a shield, or one graze if equipping a great sword.

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

18 Shield Bash

22 Outmaneuver: Slightly increases block rate when equipping a shield. Slightly increases chance of grazing when equipping a great sword.

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

34 Sentinel: Moved down.

38 War Drum

42 Tempered Will

46 Rage of Halone

50 Goring Blade

30 Dark Slash: Sacrifice HP to attack your opponent with a heavy slash, dealing physical damage and additional dark damage.

35 Umbral Symbiosis: Lowers target's Attack and Magic Attack by 3% and increases your Attack and Magic Attack by 3%. Costs 200 MP.

40 Night Slash: Drains TP from up to three targets in front of you. 400 MP cost. 20 second cooldown.

45 Asphyxiate: Interrupts spell-casting. 20-yalm range. 3 minute cooldown.

50 Last Resort: Your next three weapon skills consume HP in addition to their normal costs for additional darkness damage.

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Ok. Now that we have that done. Now lets see what abilities are available that do not require TP.

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At level 50

Fast Blade

10 Savage Blade

14 Spinning Slash: Swing your weapon fiercely, dealing damage to nearby targets.

26 Flat Blade

30 Riot Blade

46 Rage of Halone

50 Goring Blade

30 Dark Slash: Sacrifice HP to attack your opponent with a heavy slash, dealing physical damage and additional dark damage.

35 Umbral Symbiosis: Lowers target's Attack and Magic Attack by 3% and increases your Attack and Magic Attack by 3%. Costs 200 MP.

40 Night Slash: Drains TP from up to three targets in front of you. 400 MP cost. 20 second cooldown.

50 Last Resort: Your next three weapon skills consume HP in addition to their normal costs for additional darkness damage.

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Oh good. we have 3 abilities. Oh, what's this. attack increase by a whole 3%!? OH LAWDY someone get me my fainting boots! Yeah... I'll take a forced crit blind side=>howling fist over that any day.

Let us compare to MNK at 50.

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Abilities that increase damage potential but do not require TP
1 Pummel Damage
2 Featherfoot
4 Pounce
6 Second Wind
10 Concussive Blow
14 Blindside (can crit shoulder tackle, obviously better to use with TP)
18 Haymaker
22 Fists of Earth
26 Sucker Punch
30 Demolish
34 Fists of Fire
38 Aura Pulse
42 Taunt
46 Howling Fist
50 Simian Thrash
30 Shoulder Tackle
35 Spinning Heel
40 Fists of Wind
45 Dragon Kick
50 Hundred Fists

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6 abilities. 6 TWICE what your DRK has. and this is without counting blindside.

So...why would I ever want to play your DRK? someone? anyone? explain?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

All in all, it's true that we don't know what approach Yoshida and his team are going to take to make classes branch into jobs (or if they'll give up on the armoury system and just use jobs instead), just like we don't know whether it'll really be GLA that spawns DRK. Maybe someone should ask him the next time they can catch him in an interview and see if he has anything to share on the matter.

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you're right. we dont' know. But i can promise you it wont' be to remove half of a classes abilities from their available roster.

I'd rather some epic weaponskill instead of Last Resort. But everything else is nice :D

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Originally Posted by Onisake

And furthermore the damage formulas need a lot more work than class abilities right now. as that's really the root of most of our problems.

I'm sure they are doing exactly what you say: setting groundwork to allow multiple jobs to exist. HOWEVER what you have proposed does not improve the flow of transitioning GLA into a DD class. period.

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Fair enough. You disagree with the OP.

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i dont' think you know/remember what GLA used to be. it's GREATLY improved from it's original state. they didn't dilute it at all. if anything they allowed it to concentrate and turn it into a worthwhile class.

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I was here when the game launched. GLA at the time, despite stat scaling, was designed to be attack oriented because the shield/defense abilities you got from a equipping a shield (which levelled separately from your sword). They removed a whole bunch of GLA attacks and combined Sword with Shield to create the current version of GLA. Offensively the class got watered down between accomodating the shield skills and the ability limit the developers placed on all classes/jobs. Here's the thing I neglected to mention in the last post: GLA's current design butts heads with the intent of having jobs be the role-focused gameplay option for players. People have complained about this since jobs were implemented. If jobs are going to represent your role in a party, then classes have to be more "general" to allow multiple jobs to sprout from the classes and not create redundancy between class and job. I'm actually hoping someone talks to Yoshida about this at gamescon in an interview just to get this question out of the way.

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losing one or two abilities is one thing. Losing 5+ is another. you obsolete 5 abilities for your proposed drk at level 30 it's much worse at level 50.

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5 abilities that have nothing to do with damage dealing and have all to do with tanking. On that note, I took your words to heart from two posts ago and was thinking of making an exception on Rampart, but it would need a rename. Rename it to Rally and change the defense buff granted to the party to your suggested attack buff when equipping a Great Sword.

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i'm close to just not replying to this thread anymore.

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You don't have to reply to my thread. No one's holding a gun to your head and ordering you to read my posts.

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They are wanting to get away from this. they want all of your abilities to carry some meaning. It's like in FFXI where you had a bunch of WS that were totally useless.

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Apples and oranges. FFXI was subject to clutter that was useless in all situations and had no part in role flexibility. That goes for spells on certain jobs, a crapton of bard songs as well as weapon skills. People didn't use daggers on a WAR because the WAR had much higher skill ratings on axe and great axe. SAMs had no sword option because their G.Katana skill was much higher than anything else. Likewise, DRK had wastes of space in elemental spells because despite their decent rating their job model did not support it between low MP and spells not scaling with any of their primary stats.

By the way, the reason so many WS were useless in FFXI was largely because it was not easy to pump damage up with stats the way others were. Even then, the WS that scales best or had the most hits won. Hence why Guillotine trumped Spiral Hell and Cross Reaper well into TAU until they nerfed its accuracy.

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this is not done by obsoleting over half of your available abilities. branching builds off of existing framework. it doesn't slash and burn half of that frame work.

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There's a difference between the current foundation and having to revampt the foundation to support additional jobs branching from it. Why you'd think GLA should stay as is is beyond me, because in its current incarnation it cannot support another job aside from PLD branching from it.

Do note that I'm playing within the ability limit currently in place. I could add abilities. A whole lot. But that's wasted time because we don't know how the devs will approach this.

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Oh good. we have 3 abilities. Oh, what's this. attack increase by a whole 3%!? OH LAWDY someone get me my fainting boots! Yeah... I'll take a forced crit blind side=>howling fist over that any day.

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Because my suggested numbers are absolute and written in stone...oh wait, they aren't. I like starting with low numbers so that if it needs to be buffed it can be without someone coming in from the sidelines saying it might be OP. I originally thought 10% would be a good place to start, and can change the suggested number back to that. Also note it lowers mob damage output by the same amount, and if it were up to me it would be a guaranteed effect.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I'd rather some epic weaponskill instead of Last Resort.

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I would too, but I'm trying to think along the lines of how the developers think. Not to mention a WS on a 15-minute timer just seems lame to me. Blood Weapon was terrible outside of Kraken Club zergs, so I'd rather not see that again, either.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I was here when the game launched. GLA at the time, despite stat scaling, was designed to be attack oriented because the shield/defense abilities you got from a equipping a shield (which levelled separately from your sword). They removed a whole bunch of GLA attacks and combined Sword with Shield to create the current version of GLA. Offensively the class got watered down between accomodating the shield skills and the ability limit the developers placed on all classes/jobs. Here's the thing I neglected to mention in the last post: GLA's current design butts heads with the intent of having jobs be the role-focused gameplay option for players. People have complained about this since jobs were implemented. If jobs are going to represent your role in a party, then classes have to be more "general" to allow multiple jobs to sprout from the classes and not create redundancy between class and job. I'm actually hoping someone talks to Yoshida about this at gamescon in an interview just to get this question out of the way.

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There were very specific reasons. classes gain more flexibility through greater access to sub job abilities. GLA can hold hate far better than PLD due to access to a wider range of hate abilities (taunt from pug, second wind, etc.) and having access to most of the same abilities that pld uses.

at level 50, you have 10 other abilities in addition to your class abilities.

when you switch to a job, you gain 5 new abilities in addition to your class abilities. these new abilities help you refine towards a certain role. you can also chose from 5 other class abilities not tied to the class you have equipped. in addition those 5 abilities are restricted to certain sub classes.

while in class form, those 5 unique abilities are instead traded for existing abilities available to other classes. so you have access to 10 abilities existing on other classes. there is no restriction on what other classes' abilities you can equip.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

5 abilities that have nothing to do with damage dealing and have all to do with tanking. On that note, I took your words to heart from two posts ago and was thinking of making an exception on Rampart, but it would need a rename. Rename it to Rally and change the defense buff granted to the party to your suggested attack buff when equipping a Great Sword.

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5 abilities that could have a dual purpose if reworked. if you want to build a DD class from GLA things must change. otherwise the class will not be able to compete. you agreed that this was the case. but instead of proposing a valid rework, you just want to obsolete abilities instead. I'm pointing out this is a bad idea. it will not work.

the job abilities would have to be blatantly overpowered to compensate for a lack of usable class abilities. this is poor design.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You don't have to reply to my thread. No one's holding a gun to your head and ordering you to read my posts.

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I don't. but I like discussion. some of your comments are not discussion. I asked repeatedly for rational behind decisions so i could better understand your viewpoint. when you dont' provide this there is no longer a discussion. it's just bickering.

I also love design. when i see a bad design my OCD kicks in and I want to fix it. this is overruled when the other designer refuses critique and it becomes clear that their decisions are pre-rational thought. IE: no amount of reason will persuade them otherwise. so there's no longer a point to discussion.

you can't always just do things for other people. you have to let them fail sometimes and learn from their mistakes. once it gets to that point i just walk away.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Apples and oranges. FFXI was subject to clutter that was useless in all situations and had no part in role flexibility. That goes for spells on certain jobs, a crapton of bard songs as well as weapon skills. People didn't use daggers on a WAR because the WAR had much higher skill ratings on axe and great axe. SAMs had no sword option because their G.Katana skill was much higher than anything else. Likewise, DRK had wastes of space in elemental spells because despite their decent rating their job model did not support it between low MP and spells not scaling with any of their primary stats.

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You can bring up WoW but i can't bring up FFXI? that doesn't make sense. WoW was a copy of the korean grinder. they copied many of the concepts, the difference was they listened to their player base and refined it and made it wonderful. at least for a while.

The problem was they continued to listen to the player base, and the game turned to crap.

it is/was the industry standard for MMO. it was hugely successful for many reason.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

By the way, the reason so many WS were useless in FFXI was largely because it was not easy to pump damage up with stats the way others were. Even then, the WS that scales best or had the most hits won. Hence why Guillotine trumped Spiral Hell and Cross Reaper well into TAU until they nerfed its accuracy.

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The original accuracy of the formula was based on the original accuracy of 2h weapons. they buffed the accuracy on 2h, but did not adjust (or adjust enough) the formula to compensate. as such the accuracy was too high for this ability. War and SAM did not have as many hit in their multi hit skills, so these did not need adjusted. IE: it needed done. it wasn't to compensate and make the single hits better. it wasn't to nerf the job. it was just the multi hit was better than intended.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

There's a difference between the current foundation and having to revampt the foundation to support additional jobs branching from it. Why you'd think GLA should stay as is is beyond me, because in its current incarnation it cannot support another job aside from PLD branching from it.

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There are 3 roles that one can fulfill in a multiplayer game. DD, Tank, Support.

GLA is fine as it is because it can branch into either Tank or Support. it does not need the DD option. My arguement is that a DD class should not stem from GLA. A support class such as RDM, BLU, GEO, etc. could easily spawn from GLA and take advantage of it's natural defensive abilities and have no need to 'obsolete' or remove them from the roster. a support class would be capable of using these abilities in a unique way. such as RDM having an ability that applies a self buff to an ally. (allows a PLD to double stack aegis boon, or give it to a blm that just pulled hate)

these are examples that could work. i don't think it's the best direction of the class per se, but it is an option.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Do note that I'm playing within the ability limit currently in place. I could add abilities. A whole lot. But that's wasted time because we don't know how the devs will approach this.

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Which is where the flaw lies. you cannot make a competitive DD class from GLA with its current ability set. you would need to change it's abilities. there is no way around this.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Because my suggested numbers are absolute and written in stone...oh wait, they aren't. I like starting with low numbers so that if it needs to be buffed it can be without someone coming in from the sidelines saying it might be OP. I originally thought 10% would be a good place to start, and can change the suggested number back to that. Also note it lowers mob damage output by the same amount, and if it were up to me it would be a guaranteed effect.

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the value would not matter so much as the duration and CDs of the other abilities with your proposal. many of the abilities would need to be broken to compensate for the jobs lack of class abilities. this is the only skill that really increases DRKs potential damage with WSs. all other abilities just help increase the frequency or are direct damage.

IE: this ability would need to be a toggle and be active all the time to help DRK generate damage from AAs to compensate for it's lack of ability damage.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I would too, but I'm trying to think along the lines of how the developers think. Not to mention a WS on a 15-minute timer just seems lame to me. Blood Weapon was terrible outside of Kraken Club zergs, so I'd rather not see that again, either.

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I see nothing in your proposal that would make sense to a developer. IE: you're not thinking like a developer. you're thinking about what you want. there is a very big difference here. As an engineer I know for a fact that sometimes what I want is not whats best for the project. so i have to swallow my pride and do my job.

you're introducing a new mechanic that overlaps an existing mechanic: partial parry. there is no need for t his to exist. parry works fine as it is. just adjust the frequency. the same thing gets accomplished. this was mistake number one.

removing nearly all utility abilities from a class for a given job: defensive abilities tied to shield, job can't use shield. this was the biggest mistake. it's an even bigger mistake that you don't want to back down from it.

you make some valid points, HOWEVER, the execution of those points is too slash-and-burn. you cannot build a DD class from GLA as it is. it will not be able to compete. you woudl need to add an ability that changes the nature of these abilities. and then you're 'wasting' one of the job abilities that it could have had if it built from a more suitable class.

when you're introducing a new job/class, you want to figure out how 'fun' it will be to play. this, realistically, can be quantified by how active the class/job is and the risk/reward ratio plays out. the bigger the rewards, the more 'fun' it can be to play. however if the job is too safe, a player will not feel challenged and become bored. Skill can come into play for adjusting risk/reward. but in all reality you want this to be as close to 1 as possible. IE: if you must take high risks, you should get high rewards.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

You can bring up WoW but i can't bring up FFXI? that doesn't make sense.

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The reason I called that part of your post apples and oranges is because FFXI's problem with useless spells and WS has nothing to do with a design approach where you have multiple classes sprouting from a "base" class. Spells and weaponskills being useless due to bad design is vastly different from a guy going the two-hander route and not being able to use shield skills because his focus is on two-handed weapons.

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GLA is fine as it is because it can branch into either Tank or Support.

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I disagree, but I'm focusing on the concept of GLA being about sword combat, one and two-handed. This is something I mentioned in the OP.

MRD doesn't fit the aesthetic. Introducing scythe just so that DRK doesn't look weird with a great axe is more of a pain in the long run than adjusting GLA back to middle of the road combat, especially seeing the intent behind the jobs and the fact it would give GLA the opportunity to sprout additional jobs. Hell, DRK has historically been about big swords and darkness damage, and I would want to keep it as such.

And please keep RDM out of this.

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Which is where the flaw lies. you cannot make a competitive DD class from GLA with its current ability set. you would need to change it's abilities. there is no way around this.

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Considering the devs have mentioned there will be changes to the classes and abilities, I think we can actually start brainstorming on how that can play out.

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you're thinking about what you want. there is a very big difference here.

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That's kind of the point of suggestions; they come about because you want to see it happen.

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removing nearly all utility abilities from a class for a given job: defensive abilities tied to shield, job can't use shield. this was the biggest mistake. it's an even bigger mistake that you don't want to back down from it.

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I admit the ability limit is really hard to work with. That being said, I wouldn't back down from an approach I know works and have had the opportunity to play with. The clincher was the ability limit, which seems to be going away if the jobs and classes will be receiving new abilities and adjustments going into 2.0.

Now if we get a myriad of new abilities and obvious restrictions between roles for a class and you're still unhappy...well, then I don't know what to tell you.

Ahhh true about the cooldown, I forgot about that >.<

But still, I'd love to have some sick looking moves on Dark Knight :D

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

But still, I'd love to have some sick looking moves on Dark Knight :D

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I just had a thought... and it actually might be worth considering for GLD/PLD(every future sword fighter)

Does anyone else notice that sword fighters commonly use a one handed sword in a half grip / two handed fashion? Why can't gladiators or a sword class fight with this style? (being a DD without a shield) For example when a GLD wants to tank they swap to PLD (and equip a shield) if they switch to DD they swap to DRK (and keep fighting with a 1h style)

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

I just had a thought... and it actually might be worth considering for GLD/PLD(every future sword fighter)

Does anyone else notice that sword fighters commonly use a one handed sword in a half grip / two handed fashion? Why can't gladiators or a sword class fight with this style? (being a DD without a shield) For example when a GLD wants to tank they swap to PLD (and equip a shield) if they switch to DD they swap to DRK (and keep fighting with a 1h style)

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Honestly, everytime I hear Dark Knight I think of something two handed. Like a Scythe, a bastard sword, or a lance.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Yeah, you can chage gear, but not in active mode. But you can't change class/job while in combat.

I agree with you that MRD --> Dark Knight makes more sense. (If not for Bloodbath alone)

This could be an interesting design.

GLD --> PLD (Single Target Tank) --> Holy Knight (Trash Mob/Single Target)
MRD --> WAR (Trash Mob) --> Dark Knight (Trash Mob/Single Target) (The Axe makes things difficult)

It would probably take another Job Upgrade + Skills to balance the versatility of these two designs anyways. Seeing as people want two different go-to Tank Jobs.

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I think this would be the way to go as I'd really like to see both a Holy Knight and Dark Knight in the game.

Personally I could see Holy Knight being a multi-target answer to GLD base role rather than a single target and playing hybrid tank/support role. Also you could mix skills from the Holy Knight and Divine Knights from Tactics. You'd have medium-high damage multi-target attacks such as Lightning Stab and Stasis Sword which are pure damage, then you could have a set of single target skills from the Divine Knights that do damage then lower an enemy stat.

You'd lose self healing/party buffing capabilities from WHM and PLD so you could play a decent tank in a pinch with a party or deal with adds. You wouldn't be main tanking but on bosses you'd still push out pretty good damage while indirectly contributing with debuffs. I could see them losing the shield too and becoming a large to great sword class.

For Dark Knight I would keep their damage capabilities and multi-target abilities similar to warrior. However I would decrease their ability to deal with physical damage making them the weakest physical tank while greatly increasing their magical damage resistances and offering skills that can help counter magical attacks rather than physical attacks. You can also throw in some HP drains giving them better self sustainability over warriors and maybe some stat drains that can be shared with party members. The development team would be able to make more interesting encounter varieties too if there was a "magical damage" tank in the game as well.

As mentioned Dark Knight would give up good physical tanking capabilities making the other classes a better choice, but still allowing them to tank physical trash better than non-tank classes. Weapon choice of course could by scythe.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Honestly, everytime I hear Dark Knight I think of something two handed. Like a Scythe, a bastard sword, or a lance.

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I don't care about having a giant weapon. It's all in how you use it. (giggity giggity) Let's leave the "what weapon should a DRK use" topic alone. All I meant is there is no real "swordsman" class. Why is it whenever I use a one handed sword everybody expects me to pick up a shield too?