White Mage's 6.1 changes fail to address a core issue I have with the job.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

Yeah lets compare WHM's Afflatus Solace to Lustrate, 200 potency higher on WHM's end and you only get Excog once every 2 Solace casts. The same applies to SGE but in blue and their excog equivalent isn't even 800 potency.
Okay now Afflatus Rupture. Hooray Indom is the same potency... on a longer cooldown... and without Plenary to boost it by 200 potency... oh...

That's not to mention that GCD heals have the benefit of being buffed by every healing buff and not only those which explicitly state to boost all of them. If you're running WHM/SCH the healing power gets pushed in WHM's favor even further due to fey illumination only really benefiting WHM and SCH's Fairy. You're probably gonna have more luck comparing WHMs to ASTs but at that point it's not really a crime to be placed 2nd.

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now this is where we point out "Pure" Vs "Shield" healer.

Pure are supposed to put the band aids on, Shield are supposed to...for lack of a better way of putting it: wrap in bubble wrap.

Yes, Sage and SCH DO suffer when it comes from coming back from a tank going down low, which is probably WHY they added heals to the tank skills. However, we're NOT comparing WHM to SCH/SGE here, we're comparing WHM to AST, the other PURE healer. which shows the disparity between the two Pure healers due to AST's Buffs, etc.

This was a headscratcher when Aero II suddenly was given preferred treatment - and then down the line gets scrapped for Dia, which LITERALLY IS A DPS NERF. The devs need to explain why they did this, because it honestly goes against actually buffing the job. If you're going to give that to us, just make Aero a secondary spell and Dia have a 60s cooldown to act like how you apply your Higanbana as a SAM. But no, we can't have an interesting job. We have to be Sylphies and blow our heals for DPS.

Yet again the development team gets a hard F for not listening to the healing community and our issues.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

To add to aproblem that was brought up, too:

Aero II is a better Dia now.

They made it 30 seconds, which is a godsend, but they are both 60 potency.
Dia just costs 200 mp more and does nothing else that Aero II doesn't...

So Dia is the only skill that is actually a direct downgrade now.

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Again, proves whoever designs healers has no idea what they're doing.

Same designer who made Cure 2 and Medica 2 the exact same MP cost but Medica 2 does 1000 Potency to the every single person in the group vs Cure II potency to a single person. Medica 2 is currently more potency per mana than Cure 2. . .

Aero II (Lvl 42):
200 MP
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 60.
Additional Effect: Unaspected damage over time
Potency: 60
Duration: 30s
Total Potency: 600. 3 Potency of Damage per MP

Dia (Lvl 72):
400 MP
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 60.
Additional Effect: Unaspected damage over time
Potency: 60
Duration: 30s
Total Potency: 600. 1.5 Potency of Damage per MP

As of 6.1 the Spell: Dia is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

However, we're NOT comparing WHM to SCH/SGE here, we're comparing WHM to AST, the other PURE healer. which shows the disparity between the two Pure healers due to AST's Buffs, etc.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The comparison I replied to was about White Mage's Lilies being GCD vs Astrologian's and Scholar's OGCDs.

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Originally Posted by RinaShinomiya

That's not to mention that GCD heals have the benefit of being buffed by every healing buff and not only those which explicitly state to boost all of them. If you're running WHM/SCH the healing power gets pushed in WHM's favor even further due to fey illumination only really benefiting WHM and SCH's Fairy. You're probably gonna have more luck comparing WHMs to ASTs but at that point it's not really a crime to be placed 2nd.

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Like yeah if we compare ED to Tetra then ED is laughably op in comparison but Tetra isn't how WHM heals predominantly. Compared to Afflatus Solace it's only a 100 potency loss and WHM actually gets mileage out of Largesse Temperance while AST's Neutral Sect only buffs heals which AST is actively trying to avoid due to heavy DPS loss.
Casting Afflatus Rupture + Assize is effectively the same as casting Malefic + CI or ES as WHM doesn't lose damage from Afflatus Spells anymore. Well, not quite the same because Assize doesn't have a 30s cooldown but you get the point.

Who cares if Medica 2 costs more than Aspected Helios if both healers try to avoid these buttons.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

now this is where we point out "Pure" Vs "Shield" healer.

Pure are supposed to put the band aids on, Shield are supposed to...for lack of a better way of putting it: wrap in bubble wrap.

Yes, Sage and SCH DO suffer when it comes from coming back from a tank going down low, which is probably WHY they added heals to the tank skills. However, we're NOT comparing WHM to SCH/SGE here, we're comparing WHM to AST, the other PURE healer. which shows the disparity between the two Pure healers due to AST's Buffs, etc.

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The Pure and Barrier healer roles aren't worth actually caring about at the moment as there's no real value in bringing a Pure Healer because SCH and SGE may have slightly lower healing potencies, but make up for that in volume. Both have a wide library of OGCD healing on short cooldowns and thus output healing better than WHM. AST doesn't have an inherent advantage because they're a pure healer, they have an advantage because they're an AST, no one wants to play as AST, and they keep getting ludicrous healing CDs to make them more appealing. Even with its ridiculous numbers, SCH/SGE is the highest performing healer combo because their "anti-synergy" applies only to two of their least-used tools on their hotbars and can otherwise heal very comfortably. AST/SCH is slightly easier though and also has Macrocosmos.

So yes, we should definitely be comparing WHM to all healers and not just AST, but even in that regard, WHM isn't winning in healing output at the moment and probably won't be after the changes either. Sure there are healing potency buffs that their heals benefit from more, but both SCH and SGE provide healing action buffs that both of them benefit from and are able to outperform WHM out of shear volume, like I mentioned earlier.

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Originally Posted by LiddyGhu

[...] White Mage does not seem to be designed for working together with other healers, and more for being selfish about DPS at the expense of another healer player. [...]

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You said it yourself. WHM can use Medica II if they want to save lilies for downtime. It's not 100% optimal all the time (like if your co-healer is an AST, or you're with SCH and only need 400-520 potency), but these situations are quite rare. If you want to be more selfish, that's for you and your co-healer to decide if it's worth it. WHM has already taken a large step away from being the "selfish healer" now that lilies contribute more damage and you get more of them for healing. It's not perfect, but I think fixing it would require WHM's design to be worse in other ways, for instance, by making lilies oGCD (homogenizing) or removing Misery entirely and making the lilies just do 310 damage themselves.

Thank you for being polite and specific about the feedback, though.
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As for everyone else complaining about WHM, when we just got huge buffs... I guess you really can't please everyone. This is why SQEX ignores the forums 90% of the time. No matter what they do, people will complain that their class is being destroyed.

I mean really, I had a ONE single change on my wishlist: 2 charges for Assize. I didn't even get that, but I'm still very happy with the changes we did get. After thinking about it, the extra lily every 60 seconds gives me what I wanted from Assize charges anyways: A little more healing and less cooldown drift on Assize. (At 2.45 GCD Assize would clip the GCD or drift, and now I can burn a lily more freely to decrease the drift).

I'm just astounded at some people's complete lack of gratitude. It's not healthy. And by gratitude I don't mean the social performance of thanks. I mean emotionally appreciating good things in your life.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

Provided that you can get off Misery before the boss dies:
- Lilies are now dps neutral by nature
- they are dps gain over Glare spam if Misery is used under any raid buff and/ or pot while the Lilies were used outside those windows
- they are a signifcant dps gain if a boss has downtime
- they allow for lower (or even no) Piety builds as using them saves MP while being dps neutral
The 3rd one was already the case before but it's a bigger dps gain now while also being lower risk as you generate them faster.
It doesn't solve the lack of downtime options all healers suffer from but credit where credit is due. Overall the Lily & Misery change is a noticeable buff for WHM's free healing while also being a slight dps buff. It also makes WHM/ SCH comps more viable. Is it enough to be on par with the other 3 healers in terms of dps? No. But it brings it closer to them, at least.

Hopefully more changes are coming, they did listen to the feedback and made 2 major changes that affected dps neutral healing, dps itself and MP.

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This is a better mindset. WHM gained a lot today. It might not be perfect, but it's 2 or 3 steps forward.

I'm unsatisfied because it does nothing to fix my two biggest problems with WHM: they have a gauge that rewards overhealing, and Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare GLAREGLAREGLAREGLAREGLAzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Both of which are awful game design at their core. Changes that do nothing to address either of those issues are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic for all I care.

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Originally Posted by Leonerdo

As for everyone else complaining about WHM, when we just got huge buffs... I guess you really can't please everyone. This is why SQEX ignores the forums 90% of the time. No matter what they do, people will complain that their class is being destroyed.

I mean really, I had a ONE single change on my wishlist: 2 charges for Assize. I didn't even get that, but I'm still very happy with the changes we did get. After thinking about it, the extra lily every 60 seconds gives me what I wanted from Assize charges anyways: A little more healing and less cooldown drift on Assize. (At 2.45 GCD Assize would clip the GCD or drift, and now I can burn a lily more freely to decrease the drift).

I'm just astounded at some people's complete lack of gratitude. It's not healthy. And by gratitude I don't mean the social performance of thanks. I mean emotionally appreciating good things in your life.

Edit:

This is a better mindset. WHM gained a lot today. It might not be perfect, but it's 2 or 3 steps forward.

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I agree largely. PVE healing has not been fixed and still has a lot to address if we want to see healing move in the right direction. It's been years of neglect that many of us have had to endure as we watched the role we loved and grew fond of get torn apart down to the floorboards, so it's tough. The lily changes are a massive step forward and shows that they actually are paying attention to healer feedback to some degree. It may very well work in our favor to acknowledge the step forward in order to try and direct the road ahead of that.

It's a shame that they didn't address every aspect of healer feedback and time travel to the past to correct it like everyone wants, but the best thing that we can do to try and push the role in the direction we want is to encourage good changes while continuing to critically discuss the remaining issues.

I think everyone getting worked up over the Aero II/Dia situation is a bit unnecessary. It's very obviously a typo and not the only typo in the list of changes either. PVP MCH lists that Chainsaw has a 5% chance to instantly KO an opponent in one location while it states it has a 3% chance in another location. It cannot both be a 3% chance and a 5% chance at the same time, so it's clearly an error. Yeah, it's sloppy, but small things make it through the cracks from time-to-time. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

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Originally Posted by Leonerdo

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I'm not upset with WHM on the whole. i feel let down on a lot of aspects and how well they work versus other classes.

i'm not complaining, if i was, i would be more harshly worded.

I'm unsure it's 2 to 3 steps forward? but...things like Dia and Aero 2 being the same potency but Dia having a higher cost is a step backwards.

Afflatus Misery being made DPS Neutral, while getting the AOE Drop off Dmg hit is a bit of a tricky situation. so "ye and no".

i'm glad to see SOME changes that are positive, but at the same time, I can see where things haven't changed and many will say "but you don't want to use X".

Medica 2 is really helpful in 24man content, and yes, WHM has very good AOE capabilities..

but it loses to AST in the Pure Healer category because of MP Efficiency/Economy. this is where i'm seeing a LOT of WHMs have issues. The MP Efficiency/Economy. we just don't have the tools all the time to actually sustain sometimes.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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This is true, AST keeps getting these massive Healing CDs to make them more appealing, which in turn makes the WHM look worse (on paper, and sometimes in play when you really look at it.

I’ve run a lot of content with friends that main Sage…and honestly? In 8 man as a WHM? All I had to cover was tank buster DMG. Other than that I was just DPSing, Random AOE healing when needed, but because I was in voice with my Co-healer…I knew what they had available and what they needed help covering.

I want to see WHM good, I don’t want to see AST as some bad healer either, or any other healer as a badly done healer, but I want to see WHM more than what it is and to have it work better, if that makes sense?

I like the class not because of nostalgia, but because I could do really dumb crap, like pull my cohealer aside and we would play ‘how low can the tank go?’ or one infamous run of “only heal in HoTs” (we succeeded, it was fun and challenging back in the day) in Extremes or Savages when running stuff with my FC.

Now you have so much that the only reason you take healers into some things…is because there are specific mechanics that target healers and you want to know exactly who they’re going to be on. Not because you need them.

Overall? i'm...getting a bit of hope while being wary because of all the things that i've seen.

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Originally Posted by Leonerdo

As for everyone else complaining about WHM, when we just got huge buffs... I guess you really can't please everyone. This is why SQEX ignores the forums 90% of the time. No matter what they do, people will complain that their class is being destroyed.

I mean really, I had a ONE single change on my wishlist: 2 charges for Assize. I didn't even get that, but I'm still very happy with the changes we did get. After thinking about it, the extra lily every 60 seconds gives me what I wanted from Assize charges anyways: A little more healing and less cooldown drift on Assize. (At 2.45 GCD Assize would clip the GCD or drift, and now I can burn a lily more freely to decrease the drift).

I'm just astounded at some people's complete lack of gratitude. It's not healthy. And by gratitude I don't mean the social performance of thanks. I mean emotionally appreciating good things in your life.

Edit:

This is a better mindset. WHM gained a lot today. It might not be perfect, but it's 2 or 3 steps forward.

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"I pissed in your cereal but I fixed it for you, you should be grateful."

Fixing a mistake that you caused is not praiseworthy, it's merely meeting expectations. I'll give praise where it's due, like the PvP healer changes are absolutely phenomenal and I applaud whoever did it. The PvE side of thing however, are just fixing something that should've been dealt with at the onset and even then, they still screwed up with Dia now being a downgrade to Aero 2. Why would I be grateful that?