When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

The people of the Eighth Umbral Calamity timeline were saved by Azem. They have the strength and resilience to carry on despite being pushed to the brink, and they will continue to do so without us, as was laid down in 'An Unpromised Tomorrow.'

'The Warrior of Light's tale is one of unyielding bravery. To tell it was to feel courage; to hear it was to feel hope. It was a breath of inspiration in an age of suffocating shadow. In the history of a fallen nation was our hero hailed as its greatest ally. In the timeworn pages of a noble's memoires were their deeds joyously retold. For many years, these stories were the flame which warmed them through the coldest of nights. And so it should come as little surprise that the plan found no shortage of volunteers, concerning as it did the Warrior of Light. It was their chance to add their own verse to the hero's saga. He/she was the lodestar that brought them all together, to send their final message back through time and space... to him/her.'

"The light of your legacy was our torch in the darkness. Burn bright again... and live."

They didn't change their past. They changed our future.

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Okay...but that literally doesnt change the fact they acknowledged the possible outcomes which was total erasure of their timeline. Did they get consent from everyone to do so? No, but they did so anyway. In a way they did change their past, it just resulted in an entire alternate timeline. They didnt just accept their fate, they chose to do something about it, which is no different than the ancients. We're shown this throughout expansions as well. People dont really just give in to garlean rule, theres a whole expansion like that. One of the themes has been defying whatever fate has been brought upon you. You keep striving for better. This is even the whole alphinaud speech. They will continue striving for betterment of their world and their kind, the same thing the ancients did as stewards of the star.

According to Venat we must all suffer. Cause being happy all the time is bad.

Now some people say, well why not minor suffering? If the little joys can help overcome great tragedy, than mild inconveniences can make us appreciate the great things we have. (See losing power or internet for an hour or so).

But NOPE. Venat is all like "You will die, have disease, be tortured in ENDLESS CONFLICT MUAHAHAHAHAHA! Also I'm the good guy!"

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

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I don't see where you're going with this. How does this contradict the themes that we were discussing?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Okay...but that literally doesnt change the fact they acknowledged the possible outcomes which was total erasure of their timeline. Did they get consent from everyone to do so? No, but they did so anyway. In a way they did change their past, it just resulted in an entire alternate timeline. They didnt just accept their fate, they chose to do something about it, which is no different than the ancients. We're shown this throughout expansions as well. People dont really just give in to garlean rule, theres a whole expansion like that. One of the themes has been defying whatever fate has been brought upon you. You keep striving for better. This is even the whole alphinaud speech. They will continue striving for betterment of their world and their kind, the same thing the ancients did as stewards of the star.

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The ancients weren't trying to move on. They wanted what they had before the Final Days and nothing less. Given what we know now. This hiding would have doomed them all.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

According to Venat we must all suffer. Cause being happy all the time is bad.

Now some people say, well why not minor suffering? If the little joys can help overcome great tragedy, than mild inconveniences can make us appreciate the great things we have. (See losing power or internet for an hour or so).

But NOPE. Venat is all like "You will die, have disease, be tortured in ENDLESS CONFLICT MUAHAHAHAHAHA! Also I'm the good guy!"

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When you typed all that, did at any point it occur to you that it might have been a complete misrepresentation of both Venat as a character and the intended message and themes of Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The ancients weren't trying to move on. They wanted what they had before the Final Days and nothing less. Given what we know now. This hiding would have doomed them all.

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Except they were. The problem here with the theme is, they weren’t even giving a fighting chance. Venat kept the knowledge to herself instead of telling it to her people and giving them a chance. She then has the audacity to say they need to learn suffering when we know they did. They were trying to undo the calamity that was brought upon them. This is the very thing Ironworks did. They were willing to sacrifice a timeline to bring the WoL back and undo the calamity. Idk what’s hard to understand there.

Its not hard to understand, its also not hard to see how its different.

The Ironworks and co never expected to directly benefit from there work. At best they thought it would erase them from existence. They were never going to get to go back and in the case of the later generations never got to experience a better world in the first place.

In that sense there goal was similar to the first Ancient sacrifices, the ones to save the world and there people.

But thats where the similarities end, because the other Ancients decided to keep going. They wanted to live, for everyone who died to come back and to continue there lives exactly as they were before. Even if it meant sacrificing other living being who had no say in the matter, they would do it for there comfort.

That's the difference, in no scenario did the Ironworks expect to actually get anything out of what they were doing. It was all for the benefit of others.

There was no paradise for them to return to, there labors and sacrifices were never going to be rewarded as far as they knew, they weren't going to be able to live lives of bliss with all the people they lost back with them and they knew that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except they were. The problem here with the theme is, they weren’t even giving a fighting chance.

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I see that you substituted the word 'theme' in here when you really meant 'storyline'. You may think that gives your post the appearance of staying relevant to the thread, but it really doesn't. What I don't understand is why a few of you, +/- a few sub-level 80 sockpuppet accounts, feel the need to convert every thread here into an argument on why you hate Venat or on why the Convocation was right. When are we supposed to stop fighting? When people stop taking these bait posts seriously.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

When you typed all that, did at any point it occur to you that it might have been a complete misrepresentation of both Venat as a character and the intended message and themes of Endwalker?

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It's not too tough to come to that conclusion though. Her mindset isn't far off from Emet's, or those who blame Eve from the old testament in Christianity for mankind's suffering. Venat and the sundering definitely gave off some strong Eve and the Garden of Eden vibes for sure.

There's a pretty significant difference between being lead astray and acting while having all the facts. The former would be Eve, while the latter would be Venat. One is far more egregious than the other.