Revert the Ninja change please, thanks.

And about melee weaponskills breaking raiju stacks, I prefer personally the 6.05 current version. If I understand the flexibility wanted, I think that would be too much flexibility here and would lead to more complexity regarding rotation optimization and consistency, which is not the direction the team seem to take and ninja seems to be in generally put in the top regarding job "difficulty", which is subjective, but objectively (in my opinion) far more complicated than a reaper and a summoner (general gameplay and optimization).

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Originally Posted by Yuurei_007

However, if I like being able to vary between Forked+Forked, Forked+Fleeting, Fleeting+Forked or Fleeting+Fleeting, Fleeting can be in theory removed from the bar which is strange. They should (and I thin they will do it one day) improve slightly Fleeting potency to justify its use without punishing too much multiple use of Forked gap closer.

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Fleeing is actually better in most situations, unless you need to gap-close to the enemy. It doesn't lock you in the movement animation at all(thus allowing for one-the-run uses) and can be safely executed whenever you need to stay at maximum melee range and moving right to the enemy's hitbox (which is what Fleeting and any targeted gap-closer does) would place you in an AoE or out of your assigned position during a mechanic, which comes up quite a lot in harder content. They both have their own utility and adding potency to one would make the other actually never used. This way you can freely pick whichever is the best for your current situation.

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Originally Posted by Yuurei_007

Can someone explain to me the reason of the 5 free ninki from Kamaitachi when used outside Bunshin ?

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They've explained it in the patch notes:

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Execution no longer consumes a stack of Bunshin.
Increase to Ninki Gauge has been changed from 5 to 10.
* Prior to Patch 6.05, both the execution of Phantom Kamaitachi and the effect of Bunshin increased the Ninki Gauge by 5, resulting in a total increase of 10. The above adjustment ensures this increase to the Ninki Gauge remains unchanged when executing Phantom Kamaitachi.

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It's supposed to give 10 ninki since it is no longer affected by Bunshin, but for some reason they forgot to edit the tooltip and it still says 5 instead of 10.

Jeez as a former nin main you guys are making that decision a lot less burdensome

Thanks for your answers.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Fleeing is actually better in most situations, unless you need to gap-close to the enemy. It doesn't lock you in the movement animation at all(thus allowing for one-the-run uses) and can be safely executed whenever you need to stay at maximum melee range and moving right to the enemy's hitbox (which is what Fleeting and any targeted gap-closer does) would place you in an AoE or out of your assigned position during a mechanic, which comes up quite a lot in harder content. They both have their own utility and adding potency to one would make the other actually never used. This way you can freely pick whichever is the best for your current situation.

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Interesting point indeed. Thanks for making me aware of this problem of max melee range / hitbox. I guess we can appreciate this point more in hard content (savage, ultimate), which I haven't tried yet...
However, if I understand that we don't need to increase Fleeting DPS since it is already better in most situations, increasing its potency slightly won't make Forked gap closer skill never used and won't change the fact Fleeting will still be better in most situation.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

It's supposed to give 10 ninki since it is no longer affected by Bunshin, but for some reason they forgot to edit the tooltip and it still says 5 instead of 10.

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I understand their main goal from their explanation in the patch notes: we can use it outside Bunshin without losing ninki gain compared to before (consistency of ninki generation compared to before even if that does not resolve the problem of ninki generation currently due to raiju modification) while being more flexible due to its 45s duration to have an additional good DPS range skill when we need to exit from melee to avoid using Throwing Dagger as much as possible when ninjutsu is not available.

However, what it is not clear for me is that doing this imply that we lose 5 free ninki (40 potency in the long term) each time we use Kamaitachi under Bunshin instead of outside of Bunshin. When Bunshin and Trick Attack are aligned, it would be logic to use Raiju then Kamaitachi within Trick Attack window as our stronger potency weaponskills, but doing so will make us 5 ninki potency in the long term hence the question: is it better in terms of DPS to use it within Trick Attack window to get the 5% buff of TA (+buff of other jobs in the team) while losing 5 ninki potency in the long term or the contrary?

For example, if we use the following opener (without Doton pre-pull and in solo for the moment) as example (it is the one I use currently from my own calculations while waiting for the "official" one , so it can be wrong) :

A. Suiton (Kassatsu) - Spinning Edge (Potion) - Gust slash (Mug) - Aeolian Edge (Bunshin) - Spinning Edge (Delay - Trick Attack) -
Gust Slash (Dream within a Dream) - Aeolian Edge (Bhava) - Chi - Jin - Hyoshu Ranryu - Ten - Chi - Raiton - TCJ - Fuma - Raiton - Suiton (Meisui) -
Fleeting (Bhavac) - Fleeting (end of TA) - Kamaitachi
==> 10861 potency, 35 ninki left

If I compare this opener for example with (same duration, so we can compare directly potency)

B. Suiton (Kassatsu) - Spinning Edge (Potion) - Gust slash (Mug) - Aeolian Edge - Spinning Edge (Bunshin) - Gust Slash (Delay - Trick Attack) -
Kamaitachi (Dream within a Dream) - Aeolian Edge (Bhava) - Chi - Jin - Hyoshu Ranryu - Ten - Chi - Raiton - TCJ - Fuma - Raiton - Suiton (Meisui) -
Fleeting (Bhavac) - Fleeting (end of TA)
==> 10874 potency, 30 ninki left

So with 5 ninki = 40 potency (with later Bhava), I have in fact in the long term A potency > B potency (no Doton pre-pull, solo), the difference of 10874-10861 = 13 potency being due to the substitution between Kamaitachi and Gust Slash and 5% buff of TA.
That means in a team, we would need at least several players with buff to have B potency > A potency, i.e., better to put Kamaitachi within TA all the time even when TA and Bunshin are aligned.

Sorry if I am all wrong. It is just I try to understand...

When you use Kamaitachi with Bunshin on, you still get the same 10 ninki as when using it outside and no Bunshin stacks get consumed, so you still get 5 other weaponskills buffed by Bunshin for 25 extra ninki total. The skill no longer interacts with Bunshin stacks in any way, it's merely triggered by the cast.

My bad, I was sure in my head when I tested it last time that Kamaitachi was consuming a Bunshin stack under Bunshin. It is very logic now. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Caldra

Oh boy, I have to give my opinion to this:

I love the changes and the ability to choose if you want to attack melee or use it as a gap closer with the raijus!
Most of the time, I use the melee version, yes but I love it, that you can quickly close distances with the other raiju, not losing any dps and you don't have to use shukichi!

There is no reason for anyone to complain that you lose the raiju stacks if you use your 1-2-3 combo, because if you do, you deserve to lose it!
Because there is no reason not to use the melee raiju instead!

I also did the math and Ninja does 30 potency more dps with the changed raijus now! And you don't get animationlocked and you don't have to spam raijus 4-6 times in a row!
You also generate more ninki because you use your 1-2-3 combo 1 more time which generates 10 more!

There is absolutely nothing negative about these 6.05 changes! You just have to adept and accept the changes!

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Show me the maths of damage gain after you losing a complete combo for 1 stack. For every 1 stack you're doing 2 abilities.

Rant:
I feel like people giving balance advice are also asking 'How Raijin Works?' I don't want to be a gatekeeping person but if combat is not your love for this game please do not give balance advice.
Ninja is an assassin, you're supposed to do damage and be able to position on a reactionary level.
Ninja should not be so low on damage and the fall back argument is 'Well they have trick attack so they help party so its okay'. No, it's not okay.
I want the best of this job and to be god tier because it deserves to be god tier. It is literally the most engaging job there is.

Getting bored of people being okay with the bare minimum.

People picking a static skill to use over a positional is literally the most newbie, boring and unhealthy thing there is. Do not bring that casual aspect to a balancing forum. IF you are obviously confused about what a skill does then obviously that's something that should be looked into to be more inclusive, but clearly that's not the problem here.

IF you want to stand still and go afk and do damage, go Samurai, they are already the best dps there is, personally I'd rather uninstall and unsub if every class gets gentrified to a console friendly; stand still and damage meta. I enjoy Ninja because its super unique. People stressing out over two gap closers is really sad to see.

Bump. I'm still waiting for that quick maths.

Six of the original Raijins = 2550 potency over six gcds.

Three of the current Raijins = 1680 potency over three gcds. You now have three additional free gcds to do an extra melee combo for an additional 900 potency, bringing your total to 2580 potency. You also gain 10 additional Ninki from the combo, so around 3 more every time you Raijin.

I have to say, it's a little funny to hear you ranting about "causals" being unqualified to comment on job balance when you refuse to do basic addition to check potencies.