And yet this notion that Hermes was responsible for Zodiark's conception has no weight behind it. Venat doesn't even give him any credit for anything, only saying that he is a "brilliant mind". As it happens Amaurot has countless brilliant minds, and at the time Elpis is taking place Hermes' own mentor hasn't even stepped down yet. Given this I have to reject the idea that with knowledge of the solution being Zodiark and the aetherial currents shielding the planet, Venat had no choice but to keep Hermes around. I mean at a base level she could have just told the Convocation about the currents as soon as it all started, that alone could have saved countless lives. Not to mention, in this nonexistent scenario Venat wouldn't even know Meteion is about to cause some kind of calamity or that Hermes will be "needed" for anything, so she would be choosing not to tell Emet and Hythlodaeus what had just happened for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
"Unpopular call"? He doesn't even tell Hermes that she can't finish the report, just that they need to return to Amaurot in preparation for recalling her sisters - Hermes wasn't even upset by it, he just goes rogue and takes her away upon remembering his promise to Meteion. Let's be real, at this point the answer has already been given, he's accepted it, and the rest of the report is just window dressing. And yes, without WoL none of this was going to happen, WoL is the only one who could catch her.Quote:
Emet-Selch made things go sour because when Meteion had the mother of all freakouts, he's the one that sticks to the unpopular call of 'we need to take her into Amaurot literally right now, no you cannot listen to her report'. That pisses Hermes right the hell off, puts him in a really bad headspace for what's going to be the worst news ever, and sends him off to Ktisis--and ergo both the dampening field and Kairos. Just because we helped catch her in the sequence we saw, doesn't mean all that wasn't gonna happen anyway.
Whatever she was doing there already? Probably a bunch of the chores that ended up relegated to the party, given how she dealt with the shark. There is absolutely no reason why she would just decide to tag along instead of saying her hellos and being on her way. There isn't any reason for them to cross paths to begin with, in fact, it was just random chance precipitated by WoL stalling the party.Quote:
I mean, what else is she gonna do?
Why exactly would Hermes suddenly give a lengthy explanation of the nature of Dynamis just because of that? The point is she vanished because her aetherial density could be regulated to go that low, it's not even strictly a Dynamis thing, Hermes gives the explanation for it right then and Dynamis doesn't come up.Quote:
And as for Dynamis... sure, the subject comes up because of us in what we saw, but an explanation was coming sooner or later given Meteion's freakout. And Hermes is, for all his many faults, not the type to hide that kinda thing; he's rather proud of that side of things.
[Spoilers] Venat's motive
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12-30-2021, 08:29 PMVeloran
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12-30-2021, 08:40 PMCleretic
I suppose the other question if people are insistent on the time loop being important is: did she stick to what she was told because it was what she was told, or did she stick to that outline because she tried or looked into other plans and they all sucked? Would she have come up with something different if she were left to her own devices?
This is more what I'm talking about with claiming predestination to take away agency. That because she had this information she stuck to it religiously, not bothering to think about it or act differently. Essentially, making Venat nothing but someone following a predefined series of instructions and never deviating. This is the thing I object to, not just because it cheapens the character immensely, but because it ignores the actual text showing that yeah, she was significantly more than just that. She desperately hoped that things wouldn't come to what they did, and we saw her try to ease people away from that, but a woman who knew immediately when that battle was lost and who, with a heavy heart, did what she saw as needed. A woman with the quick thinking to tag Meteion, knowing that whatever came next, that would be needed. A woman who realized, without anyone else having any idea, what the Mothercrystal would be needed for enough to start making it ten thousand years before it was called for.
Do people really just... dismiss all of that, to instead treat her as just 'someone following the manual'? -
12-30-2021, 08:50 PMKariTheFoxIt's also worth pointing out that as the WoL, we gave the party incomplete information. We told Venat about the sundering and the moon and all - and her response was to say basically, "well, I can see how and why I'd do a lot of that, but I don't see my overall plan to just run away. I would want to stay and fight for the star." and a little later, we learn that was the case. Escaping on the moon was always the backup plan, only to be enacted if nobody could ever prove to be strong enough to defeat her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
What information we gave her was basically all regarding her backup plan, the one that we would do if all else failed and there was no hope to save Ethyris. She came up with the A plan pretty much all by herself, so saying she was just following the predestination script seems very off. It's more like she was hedging her bets. -
12-30-2021, 10:35 PMh-alphaJust to point out, it is actually correct that we are told that Hermes would go on to come up with the idea of summoning Zodiark. To quote the journal from the quest where we learn that, "To your surprise, it was none other than Fandaniel who shed light upon the phenomenon of the Final Days, and thence dedicated himself to devising a countermeasure."Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
It wasn't Venat who told us this though, it was Elidibus when we spoke to him prior to going to Elpis. -
12-31-2021, 12:00 AMRulakirThe interesting part about this is Venat should've known that the WoL dies in a timeline to the 8th Umbral Calamity that occurred when the First was rejoined. It calls into question if she was not intervening on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurina
Hermes being necessary is accepted headcanon here, good luck arguing it. At most, he is credited with discovering the Final Days were occurring where currents were weak, something we already knew. There's no evidence whatsoever that his knowledge of dynamis played any part or that he was as an architect of Zodiark. Determining that stagnant areas should be infused with dark aether to promote activity =/= designing an elder primal. I have asked to be presented sources stating otherwise and, so far, nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Based on what we're presented with in game, Hermes brought nothing to the table that Venat didn't already know (and then some). However, given that this is 1 of only 3 defenses she had I understand why people cling to it fervently because her justifications are already flimsy. Dynamis gets dicey because it implies she never had any intention of helping her people and sundering was always the plan. Everything else is basically filed under the Minority Report defense and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. -
12-31-2021, 12:36 AMEaraGraceOk, and I would point out that just because someone believes that doesn’t mean that’s actually the case or that the narrative contradicts itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurina
On the issue at hand we have the quotes from when we meet Venat in Elpis and she asks about our story. When we tell her that our past can’t be changed, but their future can, Venat says:
This quote makes it clear how she views future events and ultimately how foreknowledge is inconsequential to their outcome. We can argue she’s wrong, or that she changed her mind, but this is word for word her views on the matter when we meet her. On whether she may have adjusted her view since, there’s not much to off of. The only things I can find are her quotes when we leave Elpis and when we meet her on the boat to Sharlayan, which are directly tied together.Quote:
Venat: How very exciting. I’m quite fond of delving into the unknown-and there’s naught more unknown than the future. Until a moment finally arrives, we cannot know for certain what will come to pass-regardless of our supposed foreknowledge. So you needn’t worry for us.
My interpretation of this, given the previous quote, is she’s is saying that while it’s possible our times will converge, we can’t know for sure, so I will do my best to respond to what happens, never assuming it is assured it will be resolved.Quote:
Venat: You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends’ memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us. We cannot know until the moment is at hand. So shall I strive to do my best, taking naught for granted as I walk my path.
Now she does say:
which could be interpreted as her saying she expects our times to converge. But like she said, even if she thinks it likely, the fact that there is uncertainty means that acting as if it’s certain to occur is unwise. Thus I don’t think it would play into her decision making preconjunction.Quote:
Venat: Fare you well, my light of the future. Till we meet again.
When she appears to us on the boat, she says
Stating the conjunction has begun to form, as well as her earlier statement that the seeds for the conjunction have been sown, lead me to believe that in Venats eyes, the timeline connection can only be truly said to have begun with the events of Endwalker. This echoes the uncertainty that she spoke about previously, as well as (to me) saying that she didn’t conceive of the events preceding this being for the purpose of maintaining this conjunction.Quote:
A conjunction has begun to form; an intertwining of your time and mine. Wheels shudder and turn. Conflict looms-monumental-which will decide the fate of the world and all life upon it.
Others can interpret differently, but I think we can say that Venat did not believe solely the timeline and the events that she became privy to were set in stone.