Low developer effort rework for the DRK Job

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This... clearly wasn't thought through. I realize it's fun to get offended, but note that unless you end up underpowered over the affected level range, potencies have merely been shuffled (in this case, to your advantage) rather than removed.


[A whole bunch of dumb irrelevant bullshit]

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Man that Square Apologist energy surging hard. "Oh no see it's fine that we reduced your potencies and increased the other tanks' so that you don't do much more damage than they do. What's that? Every other tank can tank 10x better in this new expac? Well jeeze, why are you complaining? You still do a very negligible amount more damage than them, so it all evens out!"

Nah man get bent. One of the very few "upgrades" DRK gets is to literally put it back EXACTLY where it already was for potency, while other tanks get buffs to their damage and survivability.

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Originally Posted by Danelo

No joke. My parents gave me a cd of Peter, Paul and Mary back in the day. As soon as I opened it they took it and returned with a cdrw. My parents and, now SQEX, the indian givers.

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Ignoring the fact that the term "indian givers" is actually kinda hella racist, it's still worth keeping in mind that there are actually bootlicking apologists trying to defend the fact that your level 88 ability only GIVES YOU BACK WHAT YOU ALREADY HAD while they happily play mainly on other classes. Shit like this is why DRK is never going to be fixed, and why I'm not playing this shit game after finishing EW.

I miss Longsun Zhao.

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Originally Posted by RefundEndwalker

Man that Square Apologist energy surging hard. "Oh no see it's fine that we reduced your potencies and increased the other tanks' so that you don't do much more damage than they do. What's that? Every other tank can tank 10x better in this new expac? Well jeeze, why are you complaining? You still do a very negligible amount more damage than them, so it all evens out!"

Nah man get bent. One of the very few "upgrades" DRK gets is to literally put it back EXACTLY where it already was for potency, while other tanks get buffs to their damage and survivability.

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No, Shurrikhan is absolutely right here. SE actually spent a comically long amount of time prior to Endwalker's release talking about how displayed potencies for some classes were being lowered in Endwalker because damage calculations were being changed such that stats like Weapon Damage and potency calculations could be made universal across physical and magical classes. On average, most skills for physical classes had their displayed potency reduced by 20-25%, because the underlying math was changed such that their damage-per-potency was increased by a proportional amount to be roughly the same in terms of relative performance to caster classes.

Living Shadow at level 80-87 dealing 240 potency per hit in Endwalker is, in fact, the rough equivalent of Living Shadow at 80 dealing 300 potency per hit in Shadowbringers, and the level 88 trait upgrading it to 300 potency per hit in Endwalker is roughly equal to a trait that would have upgraded it to 375 or so potency in Shadowbringers.

This isn't "apologism". I don't even think it's a good thing - Living Shadow is an atrociously-designed skill that's incredibly unfun to use, and placing so much of Dark Knight's power budget into such a terrible skill has always been a problem. But if this forum is the primary place SE goes to trawl for player feedback on the game (as unbelievable as that seems to be), then it's important that we do our best to maintain a decent signal-to-noise ratio. Dark Knight has a huge number of severe issues that need to be addressed, and this is absolutely not one of them.

I suggest taking a look at the before and after potencies on Paladin, Warrior, Samurai, etc before you flip out over this one.

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Originally Posted by RefundEndwalker

"Oh no see it's fine that we reduced your potencies and increased the other tanks'..."

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This would make sense... if the all potencies among physical classes (Tanks, Melee, and Physical Ranged) weren't reduced. Alas...

Really, is it so much to ask that, when repeatedly informed that there would be broad-spanning potency changes, one look at the situation of the other tanks before complaining about comparative strength? And as you yourself have already stated, damage isn't DRK's issue. Not at 90, and not at the level span under un-traited Living Shadow.

If your point here is that DRK should continue to have a problematic mitigation kit but be compensated for it with a far greater lead in damage, I hate to break to you, but that will not be sustainable design. Each fight is going to be tuned around the least survivable comp within standard role proportions. Given that, a DRK would nonetheless be sufficient, in which case its damage lead would make it obligatory.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All an Abyssal-Drain CD reduction attached to Soul Eater would do is cause you to feel further penalized for having any downtime (since your portion of uptime-dependent ppm increases), but in a way more annoying to calculate, while --far worse-- causing you to feel penalized for having acquired the Blood gauge, since that means fewer Souleater per minute. If it has no actual effect on gameplay save to worsen your relative potency regenerated between fights/during downtime, make it more difficult to plan CDs, and to later penalize you for gaining new skills... that's bloat at best.

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Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain share a cooldown in EW. You'll never use Abyssal Drain in a boss fight anymore. They are also both OGCDs, so your point of the rotation being harmed falls flat. The same goes for the part where it worsens your relative potency, since CaS is quite a powerful attack that also returns mana. (more edge of shadow in the long run). If your argument for why its not a good trait is that people will feel bad for not using Soulstealer as much as possible to get those ppms because Bloodspiller will take up some GCDs, then its a bad argument. By that logic, my SMN Ruin should never get any traits that upgrade its damage because I dont cast it on every available GCD. Nor should any trait that upgrade other jobs' similar abilities.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

CDR should only be used when (1) the job needs a lower portion of downtime generation (i.e., because the job already has too much potency owed to purely normal-time-based CDs) and --more importantly-- (2) it is manageable, and (3) its effects are satisfying.

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(1) Keep in mind that when I proposed the trait, it was with all the other chances taking place, meaning less button bloat over the current version. An extra CaS every now and again can easily fit in that scenario.
(2) I say again, it is an OGCD.
(3) 510 potency attack + MP gain feels pretty satisfying to me

I understand where you are coming from...basically wanting for that perfect ability/trait which fits in the rotation seamlessly with no 'feelsbad' like your Bloodspiller example. I dont have that for you - certainly not in a low effort rework proposal. Until that trait comes, I'd still take what I suggested over something utterly useless like Enhanced Unmend any day.

With the last part of your reply, I agree. I've always been an advocate for more options and flexibility in spells - SE being ranged is no exception (especially given the improvements they made to the ground targeting system in EW)

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Originally Posted by C0ATL

Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain share a cooldown in EW.

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I said "Abyssal" only as shorthand for "the cooldown shared by Abyssal Drain and Carve and Split." Note that I included both earlier.

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(1) Keep in mind that when I proposed the trait, it was with all the other chances taking place, meaning less button bloat over the current version. An extra CaS every now and again can easily fit in that scenario.

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The extra C&S per minute makes the job need its downtime generation curtailed?

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(2) I say again, it is an OGCD.

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That has no impact on managing the cooldown reduction per action. Management refers to having something to do in order to optimize the cooldown reduction afforded. Here, the most management to be done would be to save a Blood spender that'd need to be spent anyways before the Trick Attack window for if/when you have fewer seconds left on AD/C&S's recast time than the amount of seconds by which Souleater trim's their cooldown.

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(3) 510 potency attack + MP gain feels pretty satisfying to me

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You're describing C&S, but what you've suggested isn't a cooldown reduction to C&S so much as simply a Souleater buff. If you just want more C&S, and do not want necessarily to make DRK more uptime-dependent (i.e., to reduce its downtime generation) then, again, just reduce the cooldown on C&S instead of buffing Souleater to make DRK more uptime-dependent.

By all means, give us a greater frequency with our oGCD attacks that aren't simply Edge/Flood, but how you do so --while subtler-- has an effect, too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You're describing C&S, but what you've suggested isn't a cooldown reduction to C&S so much as simply a Souleater buff. If you just want more C&S, and do not want necessarily to make DRK more uptime-dependent (i.e., to reduce its downtime generation) then, again, just reduce the cooldown on C&S instead of buffing Souleater to make DRK more uptime-dependent.

By all means, give us a greater frequency with our oGCD attacks that aren't simply Edge/Flood, but how you do so --while subtler-- has an effect, too.

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Damn... In the pursuit of thinking up a trait that sounded cool, I ignored the fact that often the more simple solution is the best. A trait that gives pure CDR to C&S does get the same result, and would eliminate all the downsides that you mentioned about it being attached to Soulstealer. Furthermore, it would also help Abyssal, since Abyssal Drain is only seen in AOE situations, where Soulstealer isn't really used, except when you get down to the last 2 adds. I'll update the initial post, as I did with the 4 seconds modifications based on your latency issue comment.

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Originally Posted by C0ATL

Damn... In the pursuit of thinking up a trait that sounded cool, I ignored the fact that often the more simple solution is the best. A trait that gives pure CDR to C&S does get the same result, and would eliminate all the downsides that you mentioned about it being attached to Soulstealer. Furthermore, it would also help Abyssal, since Abyssal Drain is only seen in AOE situations, where Soulstealer isn't really used, except when you get down to the last 2 adds. I'll update the initial post, as I did with the 4 seconds modifications based on your latency issue comment.

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Glad to be of help. And to be fair, I've only come to be sharply aware of these things from falling into the same trap myself in previous suggestions for jobs/classes/specs across the MMOs I've played.

I'll throw up my own spitball list at some point. Feel free to likewise tear my suggestions apart / offer constructive criticism if you happen upon them.



Minimalist Fix (Not particularly satisfying, but far more workable, with the fewest steps and least bloat):

• Blood Weapon removed; it's just a (finnicky) free Edge/Flood per minute, basically bloat.
• Darkside removed; potencies increased to compensate. It was a waste of gauge anyways.
• Dark Arts is now just a proc that appears on your status bar, rather than requiring its own UI element. Yes, it still highlights your spenders to show your next cast is free.
  
  
• Oblation increased to 15% mitigation but its duration has been reduced from 10 to 7 seconds.
• Abyssal Drain and C&S given 2 charges, at 30s recharge time.
• Abyssal MP gen increase to 600 MP per enemy hit, C&S to 1800 MP (since it appears to hit thrice).
• C&S heals for 600 potency (3 hits of 200 potency each).
• Living Shadow reworked to have a far more responsive summon and thereafter reduce your damage by 25% while your shadow duplicates your actions at 50% effectiveness (for a net 12.5% damage increase from each action itself and 50% increase to Blood, HP, and MP generation). Duration reduced to compensate.
• Living Dead is now just a longer Holmgang with a pre-stage as not to waste its rather long duration.
  
  Voila; choiceful and significant self-sustain, a noticeable Oblation that can be better used to fill between TBNs, a reason for the C&S/AD pairing, an interesting Living Shadow, and a functional Living Dead.

Crazier Rework (Preview / Scattered Thoughts Only; Work in Progress)

• Role Actions removed. DRK gains its own, distinct versions of an immediate threat-grab and stun and gains a further, unique defensive cooldown. Shirk and Arm's Length are gone; the first's function can already be met by the threat-grab skills and the second's are merely redundant with Plunge (as a --more skillful-- knockback-cancel) and the added defensive.
• Dark Passenger takes the place of Dark Arts, but as a dynamic follow-up oGCD (with various animations), rather than requiring a preparatory oGCD; this should make it feel more responsive and increase DRK's diversity of animations.
• DRK's unique tank features are that it can consume its own HP to, in effect, bank eHP and improve healers' use of downtime and more fluidly decrease damage taken spikes (for greater rDPS burst opportunities and smoother tank damage intake) and has strong and versatile focus utility centered on follow-up oGCDs and reactive procs. Oh, and it can use Shadowy doppelgangers to briefly hold mobs targeting the DRK in place even as the actual DRK moves away.
• Consuming and generating MP generates Shadow. Shadow can be used for various utility functions.
• Consuming and generating HP generates Blood. Blood can be used for self-saves
• Living Shadow is afforded by Blood and Shadow, both, generated. (It is bottlenecked by the smaller of either.) It has no hard cooldown and has variable duration, similar to a MCH turret/Queen.
• Blood Weapon and Shadowskin are now drain toggles (of variable rate). They consume their opposite resources over time in order to increase Attack Speed (which in turn, indirectly, increases resource generation) or to gain certain further passive effects (TBD, but largely surrounding reduced enemy accuracy against you, though such would require that I rework the existing barebone evasion system into something actually worthwhile).
• (Again, this is still just the beginning kernels of a design.)

Agree DRK feels like a budget warrior with no personality. Worst defensively and given how much I LOVED drk in stormblood I am so depressed at the state of it now, I had hope it would be better this expansion after ShB being a disappointment but nope. Until SE fixes this job I have no interest in playing with a drk as unless they get feedback from players saying they are unwanted in pf's and statics I don't think they will change a thing. Two years of feedback from EU and NA disliking drk did nothing, time to use exclusionary tactics xD