*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

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Originally Posted by Lium

I don’t think that’s how it works. Meteion manifests the despair that’s already present. We saw this with the Ea. And we saw it in Thavnair as well. Blasphemies manifested where there was hopelessness. Like with the merchant Kahlzahl(sp).

So, that third civilization in the last dungeon likely already were seeking death. Meteion, being able to manipulate dynamis the way she can, simply brought it about.

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Well, that's even more unbelievable. We're just going to accept that every living creature outside of Etheirys has no basic survival instinct? The odds of that are astronomically low. Life seeks to continue often beyond reason. This is like saying the entire universe was suicidally depressed except for Etheirys and they were headed that way just because everyone else was. It's an extremely flawed concept for a multitude of reasons.

My money is more on a certain entity causing those feelings to manifest, which isn't outside the realm of possibility considering her primary developmental exposure was to an "abberation", in Hermes' words, in the Ancient world who couldn't find joy in his life.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

At least to me, the whole point is that Amaurot wasn’t a perfect society, and neither were the other ones. I was under the impression that Amaurot and some of the other cultures we’re shown sought perfection but lost their way and went too far to turn back.

Amaurot ended up the same way. A member of their society used their god-like powers of creation to create something he barely understood and gave it vague orders that went completely out of his control. When he realized he screwed up, he wiped the memories of himself and those in power who could do something about it. Then when the problem came back to bite them, they couldn’t comprehend it and decided to cull half of their population and half again to cover up the problem and to re-seed life on the planet and were about to cull that too in order to bring back everyone sacrificed and then continue their society like nothing bad happened while their can of worms wreaked havoc across the stars.

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Before you pin this all on Hermes, he was broken by the fact that his people pop souls into monsters that they want to add to the ecosystem for no good reason except for the fact that they can. And these monsters are routinely tested in a lab and destroyed if they have undesirable and unforeseen problems. He let his own creation go to test whether or not his people even have a right to continue on, and it wasn’t until after we were depowered and humbled that we were able to prove ourselves and pass the test without sweeping the problem under the wrong and Emet-Selch admitted it.

What part of that sounds like a perfect world?

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It may not be a perfect society, but is the sundered Source a better one?
You pin Meteion on them, as if they even knew she existed: Hermes made sure to clean their memories and give them no chance about it. The Convocation wasn't playing the same game as Meteion.

Besides, they had the answer to Meteion's question: they would sacrifice what they needed in order to make sure they survived, and sacrifice again a sizeable part of their society, in order to bring life back to their world. They didn't kill themselves out of despair, they pushed through it, and meant to then sacrifice a part of the life they had brought back, in order to rejoin with the ones who volunteered.
That was their answer, and the one Emet even gave himself when we summoned him before Dead Ends: "You will not end our journey! That is our answer! The answer of all lives on Etheirys, past and present!".

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, that's even more unbelievable. We're just going to accept that every living creature outside of Etheirys has no basic survival instinct? The odds of that are astronomically low. Life seeks to continue often beyond reason. This is like saying the entire universe was suicidally depressed except for Etheirys and they were headed that way just because everyone else was. It's an extremely flawed concept for a multitude of reasons.

My money is more on a certain entity causing those feelings to manifest, which isn't outside the realm of possibility considering her primary developmental exposure was to an "abberation", in Hermes' words, in the Ancient world who couldn't find joy in his life.

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Oh some people did want to live. A lot didn't have a say in it: take the dragons, the Omicrons made sure they wouldn't. It's just that at some point, despair becomes the prevalent point because of how things end up. Entropy, really, which is believable.
Take our planet, we know it'll be dead at some point. Imagine if that was in 10 years. Most people would be "what the point may as well loot and plunder or just let go".

Meteion just happened onto worlds who ended, and they obviously all end, nothing lasts forever. It doesn't mean that for every 20000 stars she'll encounter with dead civilization, she may not encounter one who's still ongoing and happy, but it's such a drop of hope in the pool of hopelessness she encountered, that it may aswell have been drowned out. The Meteion on our star kept faith in Hermes, and the relations she made on Etheirys, but her voice was drowned in all the despair the other encountered.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm surprised how many times this isn't a debate-ender with Emet-Selch, honestly. Like, it should be, and yet!

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Because it's not that simple. From the Ascian's perspective it's not genocide because none of this is really real.

You ever play FFTA? Emet-Selch is basically Marche and the only reason we're not rooting for him is because we're playing as Mewt instead.

What is a genocide when all you erase is memories and not the soul themselves, who just reincarnate later? What is a mortal life to a being who will see that selfsame soul come back to an eternal state later on?
Emet-Selch himself says it: "I don't consider you to be alive, ergo i'm not commiting murder". He's just mending the broken souls and healing the world, in his view.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

It may not be a perfect society, but is the sundered Source a better one?
You pin Meteion on them, as if they even knew she existed: Hermes made sure to clean their memories and give them no chance about it. The Convocation wasn't playing the same game as Meteion.

Besides, they had the answer to Meteion's question: they would sacrifice what they needed in order to make sure they survived, and sacrifice again a sizeable part of their society, in order to bring life back to their world. They didn't kill themselves out of despair, they pushed through it, and meant to then sacrifice a part of the life they had brought back, in order to rejoin with the ones who volunteered.
That was their answer, and the one Emet even gave himself when we summoned him before Dead Ends: "You will not end our journey! That is our answer! The answer of all lives on Etheirys, past and present!".

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The point isn’t whether one society or another is perfect or not, but if one was capable of an Answer to the song of suffering. Zodiark wasn't an answer, he was a way of avoiding the question. When the Ancients said to Venat that they wouldn’t accept anything but a world free of sorrow, it meant they would not accept Venats point that suffering was unavoidable, and thus lacked an answer. And, by not having an answer, that would mean following the path of the other civilizations in the galaxy, a point that was proven throughout the story. Calling back those they lost by sacrificing new life proved that they would not face the pain that comes with existence, which is why Venat cut them off from Zodiark and put mankind to the test.

And the answer Emet gave was after he regained his memories, a point he directly brings up when he says that he’s frustrated that he finds himself agreeing with Venat now. His answer was one reliant on her actions.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And the answer Emet gave was after he regained his memories, a point he directly brings up when he says that he’s frustrated that he finds himself agreeing with Venat now. His answer was one reliant on her actions.

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He also directly mentions that they would have never gotten as far as the WoL and their allies got, further showing that the ancients had no answer or understanding of it.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The point isn’t whether one society or another is perfect or not, but if one was capable of an Answer to the song of suffering. Zodiark wasn't an answer, he was a way of avoiding the question. When the Ancients said to Venat that they wouldn’t accept anything but a world free of sorrow, it meant they would not accept Venats point that suffering was unavoidable, and thus lacked an answer. And, by not having an answer, that would mean following the path of the other civilizations in the galaxy, a point that was proven throughout the story. Calling back those they lost by sacrificing new life proved that they would not face the pain that comes with existence, which is why Venat cut them off from Zodiark and put mankind to the test.

And the answer Emet gave was after he regained his memories, a point he directly brings up when he says that he’s frustrated that he finds himself agreeing with Venat now. His answer was one reliant on her actions.

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Big difference is, we knew about Meteion. If encasing Etheirys with aether would protect it, why not do the opposite and encase Meteion in it? We defeated Meteion through Aether, let them repurpose Zodiark into a big old laser and shoot it at Meteion and see if she likes despair so much. Hermes even had the means to create free willed entelechy, it's not as if they would have gone there blind.

Thing is, they had no clue where it came from, to the point they thought it came *from the earth*. We've seen how widespread research topics in the Ancient world was, down to having the science to make interstellar travel (Venat having literally drafted the plans the Loporrits used), don't you think one or two would have then studied the effects from the Final Days, and figured out it actually came from the stars at some point?

Do you think, if they were told "hey there's this big bird far away in space that's hell bent on your destruction", considering their track record about culling the creations negative to the overall betterment of their star, they wouldn't have done something about it? (I half expect Pandaemonium to prove me wrong on that lol)

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Big difference is, we knew about Meteion. If encasing Etheirys with aether would protect it, why not do the opposite and encase Meteion in it? We defeated Meteion through Aether, let them repurpose Zodiark into a big old laser and shoot it at Meteion and see if she likes despair so much. Hermes even had the means to create free willed entelechy, it's not as if they would have gone there blind.

Thing is, they had no clue where it came from, to the point they thought it came *from the earth*. We've seen how widespread research topics in the Ancient world was, down to having the science to make interstellar travel (Venat having literally drafted the plans the Loporrits used), don't you think one or two would have then studied the effects from the Final Days, and figured out it actually came from the stars at some point?

Do you think, if they were told "hey there's this big bird far away in space that's hell bent on your destruction", considering their track record about culling the creations negative to the overall betterment of their star, they wouldn't have done something about it? (I half expect Pandaemonium to prove me wrong on that lol)

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We defeated her with Dynamis, which was only possible due to our answer to suffering and the lessened aetheric density of our souls, both results of the Sundering.

But yes I agree if the Ancients had faced life and it’s despair rather than turn to Zodiark, they could’ve won. But they didn’t and thus Zodiark needed to be Sundered. Otherwise, mankind would’ve simply turned out like the other civilizations (one specifically that comes to mind being the civilization that relied entirely on a deity, which then killed them and themself).

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

We defeated her with Dynamis, which was only possible due to our answer to suffering and the lessened aetheric density of our souls, both results of the Sundering.

But yes I agree if the Ancients had faced life and it’s despair rather than turn to Zodiark, they could’ve won. But they didn’t and thus Zodiark needed to be Sundered. Otherwise, mankind would’ve simply turned out like the other civilizations (one specifically that comes to mind being the civilization that relied entirely on a deity, which then killed them and themself).

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Dynamis pushed us through it with the LB3, yes. But she only is ever surprised about it at the very end, when we *survive* it and when our friends save us with it. We may be on the power level of an ancient or somewhat close, as the WoL, but the 7 people we summon are not. What do you think 8 people who can manipulate aether to Emet's level would do in a fight? Bring azem and the gang and let's see what happens, along with some Hermes-made Entelechy infused with the hope of the Ancients for the continual survival of Etheirys to counteract the despair? We know good feelings exist, since pretty much every Elpis flower back then were white, in everybody's hands but Hermes.

My point is, they faced their despair, by sacrificing their number to counter the effect to the best of their knowledge. They didn't give in, the population wasn't wiped, they developed a countermeasure to that despair and its effect.
We did the same : we didn't give in, we studied the phenomenon, and then gambled the fate of the star by sending the only spaceship available for the Exodus, to try to defeat Meteion. Had we failed, the planet would be doomed.

Had they known about the cause, perhaps their course of action would have been different, but in the meantime peoplewere dying, and something had to be done.

I assume you refer to the last civilization we encounter. They didn't rely on Ra La for everything, but summoned him to end their existence, because they had nothing in life. Having spent their whole lives trying to facilitate their own lives, they became lost in apathy and had no taste for anything. Whereas Ancients still have purpose.