[Request] Can Scholar please get Miasma back?

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

This is not true.

A Biolysis is essentially a 700 potency Broil with a 30 second cooldown. An occasional Broil replacer.

A missed Broil is a missed Broil, regardless of whether a dot is ticking or not.

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I probably could've worded it better. Allow me clarify a little bit.

Both of healers' nukes & DoT occupies a GCD, which means any missed nukes/DoT of GCD translates into potency loss. Now assuming we missed that one GCD for whatever reason (be it to heal, or we forgot to press button)...

1. If we missed a Broil III...
   RIP. That's a whole 290p of damage lost.
   
2. If we missed a Biolysis...
   RIP. That's one potential tick lost there, which is... 70p of damage.

In first case, you won't get back that 290p worth of GCD.
In the 2nd case, you may have missed a tick, but all that does is it pushes your Biolysis 1 GCD further back. At the most basic form, you only lose out 58.3p worth of GCD.

As it stands nowadays, our nukes makes up the majority of our DPS with our DoT (like you said) being the occasional 'cooldown'. DoTs are generally designed inefficient to be spammed but results in overall higher damage dealt per GCD if they fully ticked their whole duration. Individual ticks will always be weaker, that is true. But once active they will continue to tick until the duration is spent. Now what if a good portion of the healers' DPS comes from DoT ticks, a.k.a. each missed dps GCD only costs the healers a tick of their DoT instead of their beefy nuke?

That is still not true, because you are ignoring downtime in #2.
If you treat a Broil miss as 2.5s of doing nothing, then a Biolysis miss should also be treated the same. But in your example, Biolysis' so-called miss is calculated as just a delay - a late Biolysis during perfect uptime.

Let's consider Succor a "miss":

Broil, Succor, Broil => 290 potency lost (Succor)
Broil, Succor, Biolysis (late) => 290 potency lost (Succor) and potentially 70p tick because of late Biolysis, depending on timeline.

You might feel better about that Succor (or doing nothing for 2.5s) because your dot is ticking, but it's still -290 potency because you lost 1 full GCD that could've been a Broil.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

That is still not true, because you are ignoring downtime in #2.
If you treat a Broil miss as 2.5s of doing nothing, then a Biolysis miss should also be treated the same. But in your example, Biolysis' so-called miss is calculated as just a delay - a late Biolysis during perfect uptime.

Let's consider Succor a "miss":

Broil, Succor, Broil => 290 potency lost (Succor)
Broil, Succor, Biolysis (late) => 290 potency lost (Succor) and potentially 70p tick because of late Biolysis, depending on timeline.

You might feel better about that Succor (or doing nothing for 2.5s) because your dot is ticking, but it's still -290 potency because you lost 1 full GCD that could've been a Broil.

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Straw man argument.

Broil, Succor, Broil - -700 potency from lacking Biolysis
Broil, Succor, Biolysis - -290 potency from lacking Broil.

You loss more damage from lack of your DoT over lack of your nuke.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Straw man argument.

Broil, Succor, Broil - -700 potency from lacking Biolysis
Broil, Succor, Biolysis - -290 potency from lacking Broil.

You loss more damage from lack of your DoT over lack of your nuke.

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Why would it be lacking Biolysis? I said that Biolysis is essentially a 700 potency gcd with a 30 second cooldown. Just treat it as such in the first example.

The point here is that Succor is a 290 potency cost, regardless of what you are doing. Read the post I'm replying to. How could #2 only cost 70 potency if we are missing a gcd? By ignoring downtime.

This chain of replies started from the following, which implies that missing Broils is "more forgiving" while a dot is ticking. A missed Broil is -290 potency, dot or no dot.

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Having most of DPS source stems from DoT damage is actually more forgiving than the one nuke ala Broil which punishes you the more Broil casts you fail to squeeze in. DoT ticks while you're (not) doing something, nukes don't. Of course they should still leave at least one nuke button for us to press once we have applied all our hypothetical DoT buttons.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Why would it be lacking Biolysis? I said that Biolysis is essentially a 700 potency gcd with a 30 second cooldown. Just treat it as such in the first example.

The point here is that Succor is a 290 potency cost, regardless of what you are doing. Read the post I'm replying to. How could #2 only cost 70 potency if we are missing a gcd? By ignoring downtime.

This chain of replies started from the following, which implies that missing Broils is "more forgiving" while a dot is ticking. A missed Broil is -290 potency, dot or no dot.

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So your argument is that you have the DoT up in the 1st example but its not up for the 2nd example. That is a horrible comparison, hence why I called your argument a Strawman Argument. You are trying to dictate a narrative to prove your point is correct by artificially changing the circumstances. That is not how a test works. You need to compare 2 instances of the same circumstance in order for an argument to be valid.

If the DoT needs to be refreshed in argument 2, it needs to be refreshed in argument 1 as well. If the DoT is not needed to be refreshed then the 2nd argument is invalid because the DoT is already up. Either way, your argument is false.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

So your argument is that you have the DoT up in the 1st example but its not up for the 2nd example. That is a horrible comparison, hence why I called your argument a Strawman Argument. You are trying to dictate a narrative to prove your point is correct by artificially changing the circumstances. That is not how a test works. You need to compare 2 instances of the same circumstance in order for an argument to be valid.

If the DoT needs to be refreshed in argument 2, it needs to be refreshed in argument 1 as well. If the DoT is not needed to be refreshed then the 2nd argument is invalid because the DoT is already up. Either way, your argument is false.

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Here you go, two 30s rotations identical in potency. The 0p Succor costs the same. -290 potency. Dot or no dot.

https://i.imgur.com/SYiORgC.png

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

As it stands nowadays, our nukes makes up the majority of our DPS with our DoT (like you said) being the occasional 'cooldown'. DoTs are generally designed inefficient to be spammed but results in overall higher damage dealt per GCD if they fully ticked their whole duration. Individual ticks will always be weaker, that is true. But once active they will continue to tick until the duration is spent. Now what if a good portion of the healers' DPS comes from DoT ticks, a.k.a. each missed dps GCD only costs the healers a tick of their DoT instead of their beefy nuke?

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I think the image above should be clear enough, so feel free to ignore the posts above.

The value of a GCD is the total potency of that GCD. It doesn't matter if it's over time or not. Condense any dot you have into a nuke with a cooldown like in the image above. If you have a 2.5s gap (Succor or doing nothing), the cost of that gap is the same. Having a dot is not more forgiving.

Extend this to multiple dots if you want, the result is the same. The 2.5s gap costs you the potency of your filler.

Personally, i think if Miasma 2 were to come back, it should at least not come back in the way it was back then, reason for that is, because having both the old Miasma 2 and Art of Dabbing would make SCH just even more boring than it already is.
Instead, i think it should come back in the form of a placeable AoE like either Doton or Shadowflare and maybe even doing something fancy like:

- blowing up DoTs for part/full duration on enemies that enter the cloud
or
- apply debuffs and does steadily increased damage the longer a enemy stands in it

But if i were to make a even bolder statement, then i'd say that Spells in general, need to be reworked from the Ground up, in a way, that they all (or most of them) are outside of GCD and ALWAYS have their own cooldown, even if it is just 5 or 10 Seconds. That way, Casters can be designed in alot more interesting ways, especially so when you consider that some of them also gain multiple charges.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Here you go, two 30s rotations identical in potency. The 0p Succor costs the same. -290 potency. Dot or no dot.

https://i.imgur.com/SYiORgC.png



I think the image above should be clear enough, so feel free to ignore the posts above.

The value of a GCD is the total potency of that GCD. It doesn't matter if it's over time or not. Condense any dot you have into a nuke with a cooldown like in the image above. If you have a 2.5s gap (Succor or doing nothing), the cost of that gap is the same. Having a dot is not more forgiving.

Extend this to multiple dots if you want, the result is the same. The 2.5s gap costs you the potency of your filler.

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Again, you've changed your argument because it doesn't suit your narrative.

This was your initial argument

Broil, Succor, Broil => 290 potency lost (Succor)
Broil, Succor, Biolysis (late) => 290 potency lost (Succor) and potentially 70p tick because of late Biolysis, depending on timeline.

If Biolysis would have been used in place of Succor, you only lost 70 potency from the 1 tic that was delayed because of Succor. In your argument, you are equating Succor to Broil in both examples, which is wrong because in the 2nd example, Succor would have been replaced with Biolysis, NOT Broil. Your argument is still wrong.

Having a higher proportion of our damage come from dots with weaker nukes to compensate would absolutely make DPS for that job a little more forgiving.

Would it go someway to lessen GCD 'anxiety'? Eh I dunno about that, but it'd be nice to have 1 of the 4 healers offering something a little different from the others in this regard and SCH with it's history would be the perfect way to go there as it's an approach that could be tuned quickly and easily.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Again, you've changed your argument because it doesn't suit your narrative.

This was your initial argument

Broil, Succor, Broil => 290 potency lost (Succor)
Broil, Succor, Biolysis (late) => 290 potency lost (Succor) and potentially 70p tick because of late Biolysis, depending on timeline.

If Biolysis would have been used in place of Succor, you only lost 70 potency from the 1 tic that was delayed because of Succor. In your argument, you are equating Succor to Broil in both examples, which is wrong because in the 2nd example, Succor would have been replaced with Biolysis, NOT Broil. Your argument is still wrong.

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No, that's where you chose to enter because you think you found a gotcha. You keep coming back to this, even when I'm trying to clarify and steer the discussion towards that of dots not being more forgiving.
My initial argument: "A missed Broil is a missed Broil, regardless of whether a dot is ticking or not."

If you replace Succor with Biolysis you only lose 70p (if late), yes. But that is because you replaced Succor. You conveniently removed what we considered a GCD loss in the Biolysis example.
Why does "no dot example" lose 290 potency from Succor, but "Biolysis example" somehow magically doesn't have an opportunity cost for Succor?