It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

At current state, tanks and healers are crippled dps jobs with way more boring rotations than the real dps jobs. So why play a crippled dps job when the real funny dps job is just two mouse clicks away?

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Maybe they are crippled DPS jobs because their role is not just about DPS but other things like tanking and healing.

If tanks had positionals, they would have to spin the boss a lot and annoy the DPS. Tanks needing to keep up something is not good either.

Dark knights had a lot to maintain in Heavensward because they had to keep their MP above 0 to stop it expiring and use attacks but not too much, with multiple combos and a bloat of off-globals, a standalone damage over time to maintain and a lot of situational abilities that made you have to think. It was so incredibly complex to do it right without losing everything. Although I somehow managed to do it all correctly while still tanking I really do not believe a tank needs to be that complicated. It's unnecessary and makes it harder for people to get into tanking, in what was an even less popular role in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

... they just care for the money. If it's so profitable why invest more in to it. If any thing you start to see the cut 3ven more things as it go.

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I don't think the XIV team is all about the money. Square's upper management might.

What you've described though is "Sacrificing long term profits for short term profits." If your product's lifecycle is front loaded than that (sorta) works. But cutting corners or producing something that doesn't fit your target demographic can do significant damage to your firm's reputation which in turn limits repeat business.

I think Square's been punishing XIV for 1.0. How many times has the excuse for fixing an old bug or refusing to implement a new feature been 'lol, spaghetti code'? IIRC the ARR team was on such a death march that Yoshida gave them a six-month sabbatical because they were that burned out. Exhausted people create far more problems than they fix.

Hopefully this latest statement is a commitment to address that mountain of tech-debt.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

As for tanking, you're deluding yourself. It's the easiest role in the game right now. I see this argument a lot from tanks who want to believe they're playing a role that requires a lot skill. Pointing the boss the right way, pressing a cooldown for tankbusters 3 times in an 8 minute fight, pressing provoke and remembering Reprisal exists are not rocket science when all you're doing is 1-2-3 in the meantime

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There's a bit more to it than that. To mitigate a tankbuster one must have memorized each and every castbar or telegraph. On trash you don't just need to know how much you can handle but the capabilities of the entire team. About 40% of the tanks in my recent Stone Vigil/DD/AV runs struggle with the basics much less have team awareness. It's gotten so bad that I've been comming the competent tanks by default instead of healers.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Maybe they are crippled DPS jobs because their role is not just about DPS but other things like tanking and healing.

If tanks had positionals, they would have to spin the boss a lot and annoy the DPS. Tanks needing to keep up something is not good either.

Dark knights had a lot to maintain in Heavensward because they had to keep their MP above 0 to stop it expiring and use attacks but not too much, with multiple combos and a bloat of off-globals, a standalone damage over time to maintain and a lot of situational abilities that made you have to think. It was so incredibly complex to do it right without losing everything. Although I somehow managed to do it all correctly while still tanking I really do not believe a tank needs to be that complicated. It's unnecessary and makes it harder for people to get into tanking, in what was an even less popular role in Heavensward.

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Just follow the examples of healers you and yoshi have mentioned.
Press half of the buttons. Easy peasy lemon squeezy

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Originally Posted by GeminiReed

Maybe they are crippled DPS jobs because their role is not just about DPS but other things like tanking and healing.

There's a bit more to it than that. To mitigate a tankbuster one must have memorized each and every castbar or telegraph. On trash you don't just need to know how much you can handle but the capabilities of the entire team. About 40% of the tanks in my recent Stone Vigil/DD/AV runs struggle with the basics much less have team awareness. It's gotten so bad that I've been comming the competent tanks by default instead of healers.

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Do you? if the cast bar has an intimidating name and is a long cast, it's a tankbuster 99% of times

Alot of this comes down to fight design and the 'level of the fight' (dungeon/extreme/savage/etc.) The kits should be balanced around what the devs expect someone to do in Savage content. Who knows, with the abundance of extra mitigation added for healers and a tanks short cooldowns getting buffed, you might expect some bigger hits. However, take that same kit, which is balanced around Savage, and put it in a dungeon scenario, then suddenly, you are far stronger relative to the difficulty of the content.

They could make dungeons harder, but could that then prevent the lower skilled players from completing the dungeons? At what point do you balance it and, irregardless of how it is balanced, unless you make them savage level, your kit is going to be too good for the dungeon.

It is a careful balancing act that needs to be handled with care. You want to keep things interesting for the higher skilled players, but you don't want to alienate the lower skilled players either.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Maybe they are crippled DPS jobs because their role is not just about DPS but other things like tanking and healing.

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And that is IMHO the problem. If i choose a healer job or a tank job then i do not want to end up with a crippled dps job. :) And if i want to do dps then i would take a real dps job and not a crippled one.

Cheers

this game has neither healer or tank jobs, look for other games if you want one

the reality is xiv has 4 hybrid dps/tank jobs and soon 4 hybrid dps/healing jobs, all of them focus on dps part more than their special role. you may have your fantasies about how the job is supposed to play, but frankly it's no different than something like rdm refusing to do melee combo because it says "magical ranged" on the character screen - noone is interested and it's borderline griefing

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

this game has neither healer or tank jobs, look for other games if you want one

the reality is xiv has 4 hybrid dps/tank jobs and soon 4 hybrid dps/healing jobs, all of them focus on dps part more than their special role. you may have your fantasies about how the job is supposed to play, but frankly it's no different than something like rdm refusing to do melee combo because it says "magical ranged" on the character screen - noone is interested and it's borderline griefing

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The issue here is that SE and Yoshida seem to be the ones under some misguided fantasy of how these jobs are 'supposed' to be played.

Personally, I don't care what direction healers go in as long as they do something to prevent me pressing one single button 100+ times a duty.

The entire game design has to change to get proper healing and tanking jobs here, it's never gonna happen ^^ Might aswell be asking for fps machinist gameplay or sekiro samurai, it's just silly ^_^

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The issue here is that SE and Yoshida seem to be the ones under some misguided fantasy of how these jobs are 'supposed' to be played.

Personally, I don't care what direction healers go in as long as they do something to prevent me pressing one single button 100+ times a duty.

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Which is ironic considering the game itself tells you to dps instead of just standing there if there's nothing to heal

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It seems to be a common sentiment though, judging from the various Discords, Linkshells, map chats I'm in. It seems to be almost unanimous that SCH and DRK got treated badly this time around, even the media sites going over the changes for all the classes have even mentioned that SCH and DRK have gotten the short end of the stick. They're the only 2 I'm seeing this many complaints about too, I'm not seeing nowhere near as much complaints for the others...and for those times I do, there's almost always a joke of "It could be worse, you could be a DRK/SCH!"

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It is worth noting however, that people happy with the design generally don't post about that.
We have very few threads being "DRK is great, keep it up guys," but that's not necessarily because there aren't people that feel that way. Content players are generally just... playing the game.
People that are unhappy go to community hubs like Discord, the Forums, Reddit, etc, and share their grievances, vent, and ask/spitball improvements. Then these places begin turning into echo chambers instead of fair representations of what the community things.

I, for one, really enjoy ShB DRK. I think it's my favorite version yet. But not only do I not post about that, I straight up try and avoid going into DRK threads because I don't wanna be dogpiled for the sin of enjoying something, and because so many gloomy, bitter, and angry posts get funneled to those places that it's difficult for me to read, let alone engage with them.

Same story with most of the healer threads around here too.