8 man endgame content should go back to the 2.x method (no baby mode) Hear me out...

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

There are WAY more casual players than hardcore, and they pay the same money but they're not on the servers 10 hours a day eating up bandwidth. I think Hardcore players get the wrong idea about how much SE wants them around; SE prefers casual players and will always cater to them, as will every other successful MMO.

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"Successful" being a very important bit here.

WildStar was built by a dev team with a philosophy that "people want an MMO that's hardcore again, with raid content that requires a ton of cooperation and coordination to get through, and main story locked behind skill checks." And as much as I love the WildStar devs as people, I also think they were proven very wrong. Because while it was really neat content... a huge amount of the playerbase got to like level 25 or whatever, hit a skill wall, got frustrated with the inability to progress, and left; sure, some were motivated to 'git gud', but many others were motivated to 'git back to whatever other MMO they used to be playing'.

The game lost so many players—and so much money—that they first went free-to-play with RMT, and then just entirely were shut down. Because no matter how vocal the "hardcore" players are, they're far less numerous than the casual ones... and far less able to financially support an ongoing game wholly on their own.

Now, that "cater specifically to the hardcore playerbase" philosophy wasn't the only factor in WildStar's decline and demise, but from what I observed it was certainly a big one.

And as much as I've come to love savage and such since getting into it in this game, and look at that sort of content as a yardstick to measure my own improvement against... I also have many friends who are not into it, and who would be heartbroken to see lore locked behind it. And if it was required as part of the main scenario—like the skill check in WildStar turned out to be—they'd probably go play something else instead.

This game could definitely stand to tweak the balance in a lot of places, but if you tweak things too far you will chase away the playerbase.

I think a lot of these players who want the game harder have no problem at all seeing the playerbase slashed.

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Originally Posted by Wrestlefire769

I think a lot of these players who want the game harder have no problem at all seeing the playerbase slashed.

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And there's no reason anyone should listen to the players who want the game to do worse.

I honestly kind of wish they would at least add more interesting aspects to jobs other than new shiny nuke damage buttons.

With ranged support being nonexistent, tank aggro management being nonexistent, healers only having 1 button and dps aggro management tools like diversion being gone it feels like the only thing there ever is to do is just mindlessly burn the boss down and maybe mitigate damage, but even mitigating isn't very meaningful.

Call me weird but I preferred when fights were more uncertain and less scripted dpsfests, and you could do something at least a bit meaningful like ripping boss aggro from the tank because you're killing your rotation, or using refresh so that freshly rezzed healer can get back on their feet and back to keeping the party alive a little quicker.

Heck being able to choose between more healing or more dps with Eos/Selene was interesting in a way since you could use Selene in fights where you felt more confident in your healing

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

"Successful" being a very important bit here.

WildStar was built by a dev team with a philosophy that "people want an MMO that's hardcore again, with raid content that requires a ton of cooperation and coordination to get through, and main story locked behind skill checks." And as much as I love the WildStar devs as people, I also think they were proven very wrong. Because while it was really neat content... a huge amount of the playerbase got to like level 25 or whatever, hit a skill wall, got frustrated with the inability to progress, and left; sure, some were motivated to 'git gud', but many others were motivated to 'git back to whatever other MMO they used to be playing'.

The game lost so many players—and so much money—that they first went free-to-play with RMT, and then just entirely were shut down. Because no matter how vocal the "hardcore" players are, they're far less numerous than the casual ones... and far less able to financially support an ongoing game wholly on their own.

Now, that "cater specifically to the hardcore playerbase" philosophy wasn't the only factor in WildStar's decline and demise, but from what I observed it was certainly a big one.

And as much as I've come to love savage and such since getting into it in this game, and look at that sort of content as a yardstick to measure my own improvement against... I also have many friends who are not into it, and who would be heartbroken to see lore locked behind it. And if it was required as part of the main scenario—like the skill check in WildStar turned out to be—they'd probably go play something else instead.

This game could definitely stand to tweak the balance in a lot of places, but if you tweak things too far you will chase away the playerbase.

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I don't even necessarily think it's skill checks that turn players away. Souls games, for example, have carved out a sizable fanbase almost purely on the idea that challenging gameplay is fun and rewarding.

Where MMO's lose people is when they require too much coordination amongst strangers. I enjoy challenging content; I DON'T enjoy having to coordinate my real life and my game time around the schedules of 7 other people in order to even attempt said challenging content. It's a moronic expectation that will always leave content like Savage as an extreme niche and undesirable to the vast majority of players. Requiring that kind of thing even for story content would be a death sentence for this game.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I enjoy challenging content; I DON'T enjoy having to coordinate my real life and my game time around the schedules of 7 other people in order to even attempt said challenging content. It's a moronic expectation that will always leave content like Savage as an extreme niche and undesirable to the vast majority of players. Requiring that kind of thing even for story content would be a death sentence for this game.

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This is an interesting point, and one that echoes my own experience. I really enjoy challenging content in games and will happily (well, mostly happily) spend hours on a particularly tough fight in a Soulslike game. The duo fights in Nioh were some of the best moments in that game and I think I spent upwards of 3 dedicated hours on at least one of them. But that's just me, and that's just for me. When thrown into a group, even an organized group, it's no longer about me and my experience. I have to hope that the others in the group don't mess things up for me when I'm playing perfectly. And, of course, I hate feeling like I'm the one messing things up for everyone else when I'm having a crap day and keep causing wipes. I'd love to see more actual challenging solo focused content in FF14 like a sort of Masked Carnivale for individual roles or classes.

In short, not wanting more hardcore challenging group content is not the same as not wanting more challenging content.

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Originally Posted by Wrestlefire769

I think a lot of these players who want the game harder have no problem at all seeing the playerbase slashed.

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That's not true, even harcore players don't wan't the game to become too hard because they know all players don't have the time for that.
The biggest problem in this game imo is endgame content becoming braindead as time goes on. Some stormblood raids became easier and my best memories come always from difficulties i had to overcome (and i was a casual at the time now i'm midcore). It's more fun than just destroy what shows up and take the loot. I don't have any good memories doing e1 to e12 other than the 1srt time.
Even casuals can enjoy some good difficulty. A lot of them didnt have any problem when stormblood raid were harder etc

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

It isn't even about individual skill level a lot of the time, a group is only as good as its average skill level, and you only factor into 1/8 of that.

Extreme content harder than something like Ruby/Emerald weapon is a pain to clear, and that's pretty much because of the RNG nature of PF groups

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Yeah, why I don't bother doing savage even though I can dye the glamour. Not worth it. At least not while it's relevant. A lot of people even wait for the next expansion before doing extreme mount farms.

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

That's not true, even harcore players don't wan't the game to become too hard because they know all players don't have the time for that.
The biggest problem in this game imo is endgame content becoming braindead as time goes on. Some stormblood raids became easier and my best memories come always from difficulties i had to overcome (and i was a casual at the time now i'm midcore). It's more fun than just destroy what shows up and take the loot. I don't have any good memories doing e1 to e12 other than the 1srt time.
Even casuals can enjoy some good difficulty. A lot of them didnt have any problem when stormblood raid were harder etc

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I am casual and Shiva gave me more trouble then any boss in Omega ever did. Difficulty is all personal opinion whats hard to one person is a snooze fest to another. I remeber people 2 weeks after Nidhoggs release complaining they still could not get past it and I beat it day one with the first group I joined.

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

That's not true, even harcore players don't wan't the game to become too hard because they know all players don't have the time for that.

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Alexander Raid A3S/A4S A6S-(Pre nerf), A8S. A3S was a brutal fight and A4S was beyond dumb for how it worked. A6S before nerf was kinda brutal, A8S was a fight that almost rival an Ultimate, or just about. I play hardcore atm and I really don't want the fight to have really trash mechanics. Ultimate is an exception because it's fair.