BLM itemization in 5.4 is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Xenitan

The issue is: traditionally the raid weapon has been BiS and in instances where it hasn't, we have historical precedent where SE will change the stats to make it BiS, see: Diamond Weapons in Stormblood.

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The situation in Stormblood was a little different. The raid weapons were a whole weapon damage point lower than intended resulting in them having the exact same weapon damage as upgraded tome weapons, quite a bit more serious than simply having the correct amount of less desirable substats. To my knowledge, they have never changed the stats on properly budgeted items to deliberately nudge them into best in slot status.

Frankly, I'm not convinced the devs actually 'know' what stats are desirable for each job and plan raid weapons accordingly. Depending on the complexity of the job, often which substats that job finds desirable can be somewhat emergent and only come to light after digging by the community. Having lurked around theorycrafting spaces in the past, I do not believe the developers are 'in the know' to that degree.

I agree it's not great for any job to find out their raid weapon isn't actually best in slot, but I don't believe they explicitly try to avoid this situation, it's just the luck of the draw. I've always assumed that the process was random and that they were banking on the weapon damage difference being enough to tip the scales (evidently not so this time).

That reminds me, summoners and red mages are eyeing double tome rings as best in slot this tier too, due to the glut of spellspeed on the eden ring. There is a corresponding vitality loss there too as they are unique and one ring will have to be unaugmented. Not as big a concession as going down a tier on a weapon slot, but yeah it doesn't feel great all the same.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The situation in Stormblood was a little different. The raid weapons were a whole weapon damage point lower than intended resulting in them having the exact same weapon damage as upgraded tome weapons, quite a bit more serious than simply having the correct amount of less desirable substats. To my knowledge, they have never changed the stats on properly budgeted items to deliberately nudge them into best in slot status.

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Half true. The stats are algorithmically determined. We knew going in that the weapon damage on those weapons would be the same, because that's what the weapon damage formulas for those weapon levels were. This was not a mistake, it was 100% intentional. The outcome was not intentional. Then they just added a weapon damage to those pieces and, shock and horror, melee ruled that tier about as much as you'd expect a group of people with an extra weapon damage to rule.

Similarly, in this case, we knew the weapon would only have one weapon damage and 2 int over the tome weapon going in. We talked about how this MIGHT be a problem, but how it was unlikely. Well, unlikely enough, this is a problem. It was 100% intentional. I hope the outcome, which is what we are currently experiencing, is not intentional as well. It certainly is less of a big deal to adjust secondary stats than it is to give a free bonus weapon damage.

Well, it's only intentional insofar as the algorithm can be assumed to have been designed perfectly, right? If, going by every other tier we can assume they want a weapon damage difference to exist between tome and raid weapons, I think it's fair game for them to fix it manually. Just one of those things where it would be in line with the spirit and not the letter of the law.

Whatever the case, I think we can agree the issue of having to massage item budgets is somewhat removed from the issue of them having the right amount of stats, but those stats being suboptimal for certain jobs in practice. Like, conversely, the speed stats get a bad rep on a lot of non-blm jobs, but that's really something stemming from the rigid cooldown based job design prevalent in this game and not something that's intrinsically true. Blm is a great case study for this considering their b4-skip rotation lines came out of a literal machine learning bot (to my knowledge anyway).

And that's really the interesting part to me because it ties into the question of just how well the devs understand their own jobs and how much oversight they actually exercise over itemization in that regard. Like I mentioned, I've always assumed it's simply a crapshoot at the whims of whatever algorithm they use to populate item stats. I don't recall them ever talking about it anywhere since it's a little too niche for your typical interview or fanfest, but I'd be interested to know if they have.

Bumping this as this severely affects BLM for the upcoming ultimate, putting it at a severe disadvantage compared to other DPS classes. Some other notes:

Unlike other classes that are mostly able to work around poor substats here and there - this patch there are 5 slots that have no spellspeed on them whatsoever. Weapon, Head, Gloves, Feet, Ring 2. Melding spellspeed can make up some of the difference - but when the respective caps are 531 (Weapon), 301 (Head/Gloves/Feet) and 226 (Accessory), we're missing out on over 1000 spellspeed (after melds are taken into account).

Not only is that our most favored stat, but missing out on that takes away a lot of the intricacy of the class - enabling you to do F1 skips more often for example, and being able to fit in more procs for movement. The class is just far more fun to play with lots of spellspeed. When another class gets a bunch of undesirable substats - the rotation doesn't change significantly like this.

Since 2.1 i've been asking SE for up-gradable 24 man gear. Would that be a good solution for Ultimate world prog? Absolutely not - unless they suddenly gave a weapon and accessories, didn't put a lockout on 24 man gear and delayed ultimate for a week. However what they can do as a short term fix is what OP has suggested - fix the weapon stats to at least bring us halfway to the stats we have lost.

And at least, modifying the weapon would not screw over the stats of shared role gear (ring 2 for instance SMN and RDM also have to settle to one 520 to not take the savage one). I'm all for everyone having their raid weapon the best weapon for their class.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Bumping this as this severely affects BLM for the upcoming ultimate, putting it at a severe disadvantage compared to other DPS classes.

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When people realized how overturned SMN, they were explicitly asked about debuffing SMN before TEA.
They said they understood the problem but were leaving it.

I'm not sure we can expect them to increase/rebalance the substats on BLM's weapon (or other gear) before the Ultimate then. Especially if there is any truth to thoughts like this:

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Honestly I think this is a way to indirectly nerf the job since as it stands, after the smn nerf, it's the higher rdps caster by a not insignificant margin, at least according to fflogs data. The lower vit won't be a problem: -5 vit points won't kill you and BLM is the only caster with a self defensive skill that can be effectively and easily used during an enounter. So at the end of the day, it's just a very slight relative damage nerf to bring it closer to the other two casters I suppose. The devs probably thought it was the best way to do it. I agree that the amount of tomestones you have to spend for the sps bis is a bit excessive though.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

When people realized how overturned SMN, they were explicitly asked about debuffing SMN before TEA.
They said they understood the problem but were leaving it.

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BLM is still a king (For now), but I wouldn't be surprised if Samurai would take the spotlight. Or NIN, depending on the downtimes.
Even so, the difference in DPS is going to be irrelevant if that's the case.
SMN was completely bonker before Alexander Ultimate release, SQEX knew about this problem and they didn't touched the job despite releasing content that includes multiple targets. I think it's safe to assume they don't care enough about that. And Ultimate will probably be heavier on the mechanic side rather than a tight DPS check.

If they tweak the "Golden phase" DPS requirement as the same as TEA, no problem about DPS either.

But I think the initial argument was to be able to gear up 2-3 jobs as the SpellSpeed BiS require 10 weeks worth of tomestone.
If the next ultimate requires a crazy amount of movement, I wouldn't be surprised most BLM would consider going SMN/RDM/Even Melee for the prog. But they wouldn't be able to if the tomestones requirement is too high to gear up 3 jobs.

If I'm not mistaken we're at the 8th week since 5.4 release, meaning BLM are 2 weeks away from the spellspeed BiS?

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Originally Posted by Karshan

And at least, modifying the weapon would not screw over the stats of shared role gear (ring 2 for instance SMN and RDM also have to settle to one 520 to not take the savage one). I'm all for everyone having their raid weapon the best weapon for their class.

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Absolutely - I would agree with that.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

When people realized how overturned SMN, they were explicitly asked about debuffing SMN before TEA.
They said they understood the problem but were leaving it.

I'm not sure we can expect them to buff BLM before the Ultimate then. Especially if there is any truth to thoughts like this:

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I'm not asking them to buff BLM before ultimate (although I think a SMN nerf is needed). I'm asking them to fix the stats of the BLM weapon. That is all that is needed. I'd also like a Spellspeed option on Gloves and/or Feet too, that also wouldn't affect SMN/RDM bis.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I'm not asking them to buff BLM before ultimate

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Sorry, I might not have been clear.
I meant increasing / rebalancing the substats for BLM's weapon (and maybe other gear), not buffing the job itself.
I just said "buff BLM" as awkward shorthand because enhancing the equipment would indirectly be buffing BLM itself, even if giving them more spellspeed is more of a "fix" to some.
I revised my post to clarify.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Sorry, I might not have been clear.
I meant increasing / rebalancing the substats for BLM's weapon (and maybe other gear), not buffing the job itself.
I just said "buff BLM" as awkward shorthand because enhancing the equipment would indirectly be buffing BLM itself, even if giving them more spellspeed is more of a "fix" to some.
I revised my post to clarify.

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They have previously adjusted weapon stats multiple times over the years. In fact, they actually did it with the BLM weapon way back in ARR. They've also changed weapon stats in Stormblood. Anyone that actually thinks that this was an intentional nerf to BLM and was needed... I'm sorry but they don't know what they are talking about. There have been plenty of weapons in the past that do not have Spellspeed (e.g. A12s, o4s), but the issue here is that in this expension, it is even more desired due to rotational changes, there is an ultimate patch incoming, there are a number of other slots with no spellspeed on (as I explained).

Furthermore, it isn't just a Vit nerf. Its a WD nerf, because in order to hit our needed Spellspeed to actually perform the optimal rotation, we need to drop WD. That's a pretty big DPS nerf to a class that is already outclassed by SMN in Progression content. BLM should outdps SMN to make up for all of the extra utility it has.

It is not a "buff" to give BLM that. Its a fix. Anyone saying otherwise does not know what they are talking about. In that that persons comment about Manaward shows that they do not understand how it is used and how important VIT is.