It's not exactly as I remember it, but I stand by my point. Lyse provides an excuse for the 7 other people you're going to be with, and Alisaie says that it's a silly excuse, then they both may as well wink at the camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
To circle back around to the main topic though, Lyse does confirm there that you have an 'awful lot of adventurer friends.'
It stands to reason that the people who attack you when you're on your own also know that you have an awful lot of adventurer friends, and because of the sheer absurdity of the idea, don't believe you routinely defeat demi-gods without them.
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08-05-2020, 05:55 PMJandor
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08-05-2020, 09:49 PMLineageRazor
I think the problem with declaring FFXIV to be "dark fantasy" is that the very concept of dark fantasy is incredibly nebulous. By some of the metrics I see being bandied around her, Lord of the Rings would be "dark fantasy". It has all kinds of dark elements - a mountain full of dead dwarves, elves transformed into orcs, the Ring's corruption of the soul, and so on and so forth. And yet, LotR is pretty much held up as the template for HIGH fantasy.
ANY fantasy story is going to have its dark elements. Otherwise, there would be no conflict, no plot, and no purpose.
FFXIV does try to include a lot of "human" elements that high fantasy often skips over. Humans tend to be self-interested, and self-interest occasionally leads people to do bad things. Even so, I don't see this as being sufficient to elevate (or would it be deelevate?) the story into the realm of dark fantasy.
To me, a dark fantasy setting has to have a strong element of hopelessness to it. There are heroes, but their victories tend to be minor in the grand scheme of things. That is certainly not the case in this game. The heroes' victories (largely thanks to the WoL) are tremendous, world-altering things. The Garlean Empire was an unstoppable juggernaut, but the WoL wades through its forces like a knife through butter. The Ascians have gone undefeated for twelve thousand years, but in the space of a year or two, the heroes have driven them into a corner. We're so badass, that we have to PRETEND the enemies are harder just to get a decent fight. (See the Wandering Minstrel and his Extreme and Savage encounters.)
The setting has plenty of dark elements, but that's where the "dark fantasy" ends. Things are bad, but they're getting better, not worse. In a dark fantasy, for every step forward, there's typically two or more steps back. -
08-06-2020, 04:09 AMAlleoAnd she only seemingly does that in the english version. (And no I am not saying that it makes it less canon but it also does not make it THE canon option)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Why should randoms mooks know about adventurer friends that seemingly dont exist outside of some random text in some quests? They are not out there helping us when we do solo instances, they are not out there being celebrated by the people. They seemingly dont exist at all. Shouldnt the scions be kinda alert to have such a big number of strong echo users? Yet the only one that they go to are us (until recently where known NPCs defeat old primals instead of us). Why do we get the praise if we seemingly always need help? Why is Zenos looking up to us if we needed x other randoms to defeat him?
Where did we get 23 strong adventurers to do the nier raid if we are in a whole other world?
After learning about our possible past life is it really that absurd that we would defeat primals alone? When the only thing stopping most of the people is probably the whole being tempered thing? (We did beat grandpa solo towards the end of Shadowbringers and defeated a certain ascian in a certain body and only lost because we got a call at a very bad time) -
08-06-2020, 06:16 AMJandorSurely the English version is the canon version for the English language lore forum? We can't reasonably be expected to discuss versions we can't understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
Because that's the setting of the game? Adventurers joining the guild of adventurers and meeting other adventurers to go on adventures together is an established thing, it's what adventurers do and we are an adventurer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
We're not being celebrated by the people half the time, the normal response we get when we turn up is 'who the hell are you? kill 5 wolves for me and then I might hear you out.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
They are? The Scions mention them, we were just talking about Lyse mentioning them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
We're the head honcho, the main dude, the party leader. Eorzea is the land of the Karens, and if they want something done they speak to the Manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
I mean, to be serious, most people don't even go to us, they go to the others Scions who then point us in the direction of the problem.
Why do we only talk about Sun Tzu, or Napoleon, or Ghengis Khan, or anyone really, when they couldn't have done any of it without their men?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
There are still plenty of people in the first, and it's established that they have people who lead similar lifestyles to source adventurers, and the people of that world basically hero worship you. If you're going to pick examples from the First that don't make any sense that's probably one of the worst ones. Titania or Innocence, now they stretch plausibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
Depends on the circumstances, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Also most people, and this thread is still technically about people who attack us, don't know anything about any of that. I imagine if random mooks were getting the 'Hades-vision' of us as an Ancient a lot of them would change their minds ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
What are you basing that on? Most people get their asses whooped just trying to clear Tam Tara.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
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Look, if people want to go with solo-WoL as their idea of how the story is done, that's fine, doesn't affect me. The game though, in the English version at least, does not support it. While you can point to invidual instances of where it's a bit far-fetched for the WoL to go and get a party, you can't ignore the fact that any of us can fire up the game right now and read several journal entires that outright explicitly state that you partied up.
Even then though, all that still in some way feels a bit like quibbling about minor details while missing the bigger picture, not seeing the forest for the trees so to speak.
First. The game establishes that adventurers exist and that they often join up and work together. It's also established that guilds exist to facilitate this and one of the first things the game does is make you join one.
Second. Several NPCs mention, not commonly but often enough, that you have adventurers friends and tell you that you that it would be handy if you could fetch them. The idea that this is the exception to rule is bizarre to me. They'll tell you to get backup for something like Baelsar's Wall, but not give you chance to grab some friends before heading out to see Bismark? Don't think so.
Third. Taking a step back, you are still a mortal, that you've single-handedly defeated an invasion by an advanced army, ended a millennia long war against angry space aliens, liberated several nations across the world, and put 12,000 year old dimension hopping super beings on the back foot, all on your own, is stretching plausibility far more than the idea that before most of the major encounters you've had you got on your LS and called up some of the lads for help.
And Fourth. To take another step back, a bit of a meta one, the vast majority (maybe all?) of the main Final Fantasy games have had the main character backed up by a party. -
08-06-2020, 12:39 PMVeloranBy "wink at the camera" you mean "roll their eyes". What I'm saying here is that you're misjudging the direction of the joke. The punchline is that the story is being written with you as the only hero, the one explicitly fighting alone, but because it's a trial and not a solo duty the game mechanics are forcing you to play with seven other people, so they're lampshading the absurdity of that idea by explicitly calling it out as being stupid.Quote:
Lyse provides an excuse for the 7 other people you're going to be with, and Alisaie says that it's a silly excuse, then they both may as well wink at the camera.
The fact that you're trying to take the joke seriously and ignore that the story is ALWAYS written with WoL being the sole hero and other players not existing is ridiculous. Do people really need to start listing the moments in the story where having other people there is narratively nonsensical?
Not to mention it doesn't at all help your argument relating to the topic of the thread. Random mooks challenging WoL when they get sole credit as THE Warrior of Light, even if it's randomly thought that they've had help in the past, is equally ridiculous given the sheer amount of things they've done. You may as well just say that everyone doesn't believe any of the stories at all and just thinks everything you've done is all a myth or conspiracy. It's more believable that someone wouldn't believe you exist even if you're standing right in front of them than that they believe even 10% of it and still think they can take you in a fight. -
08-06-2020, 02:25 PMVyrerus
This isn't a concrete area for the game, just like the ever closer to popping time bubble. For instance, the first trial in the game, Ifrit story mode, you are imprisoned in a cave where there is a pool of water. One of the Immortal Flames nearby tells you that it's a way out, and denotes that, "Listen well. These waters feed into the marshes of Drybone. A short swim will see us freedom. However, if all of us attempt to flee we are like to be discovered. You alone must sneak out and assemble a rescue party."
At times, the game does things like this to explain away your party. At other times it emphasizes that you alone are doing everything. Each instance of it has the right answer, and we could argue in circles for days about it, and never come to the conclusion that it's one or the other.
The easiest way to denote the WoL's strength compared to the common soldier is to just look at solo instances or quests where you spawn several imperials at once. For instance in the level 67 Velodyna instance, you start off by fighting a couple of waves of imperials. You do have back up, but if you are on tank or your DPS is hot shit, you can pull hate on everything, and tank all of it with no effort whatsoever, never dropping lower than 90% HP if you elect to dodge telegraphs, which you also do not need to dodge. Earlier in the Stormblood story the resistance notes that magitek armor can vaporize 10~20 men at once, and that they are horrible, monstrous machines of war. Yet there you are, taking 3 magitek beams on the chin like it ain't no thing, and what's more is you are utterly pulverizing them into the dust.
As for why the imperials continue to be idiotic about you.. well, even by Stormblood, you aren't super duper dee duper well known outside of Eorzea, and they are imperials from outside of Eorzean territory, technically. Since you can change your armor and appearance at will, it also kinda makes it hard for a description of your character other than their unparalleled(save by Zenos) strength. Heck, even Fordola who has fought you once before thinks she's more than a match for you just because she was gifted a Garlean gunblade. -
08-06-2020, 05:34 PMJandorI'm taking it seriously because it's recorded as what you actually did in the in-game journal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
If Susano was the only one like this I might dismiss as just the journal going along with the joke, but it's not the only one, there are multiple entries like that for both dungeons and trials. The majority played entirely straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Susano
A few examples.
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Originally Posted by Steps of Faith
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Originally Posted by Battle on the Big Bridge
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Originally Posted by Bismark
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Originally Posted by Sephirot
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Originally Posted by Baelsar's Wall
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Originally Posted by Lakshmi
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Originally Posted by Shinryu
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Originally Posted by Hades
That isn't even all of them, there is more, and they're all direct quotes pulled straight from the game. It seems to me that the writers have been, quietly but continuously, confirming that you party up with other adventurers since A Realm Reborn. -
08-06-2020, 08:31 PMRemusImagine thinking adventurer's with echo can take on Zenos in Stormblood when even the WoL struggled a bit based on what Yoshi-p said himself he would rip them apart lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Jandor
Also explain to me how you have friends against Thordan in Azys Lla? You shouldn't take the journal seriously when said journal makes a joke about you bringing friends into the Azim Steppe dungeon when suppose to be a trial for yourself. What a great WoL you are to not follow their traditions :)
See the problem? The English local know people talk about this stuff and it's why they stick it in places like the Journal or when speak to npc between dungeons/trials because it's poking fun at the fact when in reality you are doing it alone but the game is telling you to wait for people or go grab people. They can't put it in cut scenes because the story isn't told or designed with the idea that you have others with you. Hades they SHOW in the cut scene where the others came from which is why no one questions that and it's the same across all the languages. -
08-06-2020, 08:59 PMJandorSo journal entries are entirely non-canon because of Bardam's Mettle? Some of the entries are a bit silly so none of them count at all is quite the leap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
They can't put other people in your cut scenes because of the linear nature of the flow of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remus
Adventurer friends is the story term for duty finder randos, they can't put said randos in your cut scenes when the events that decide who they are haven't actually happened yet.
The gameplay/story segregation isn't that all content is actually done solo, it's that your party can't appear with you outside of said content. It'd suck if they forced people to find 3 to 7 others to follow them around while they did the fetch quests leading up to the real fights, so instead they just make do with implying that they're somewhere nearby, just off-camera.
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To be pedantic, the Hades cut scene doesn't actually show anyone else. It's very heavily implied that adventurers will pop out of those beams of light, but it isn't actually shown until the little cut scene inside the instance, and cut scenes inside group instances presumably don't count for whatever reason, because those always show other adventurers.
Also I have seen people question that cut scene and say it doesn't count. The ease with which he summons your back-up doesn't mesh especially well with the struggle he had to get you across in the first place, and the difficulty he is having in sending everyone back. -
08-06-2020, 09:52 PMLineageRazor
"Does the WoL do everything solo?" is a question that gets asked periodically, and usually ends up in a heated debate. The game is DELIBERATELY coy in answering this, and in the English version at least (dunno about the others) occasionally pokes fun at both sides. So, it's up to each individual person to decide: is the WoL a one-woman army? Or is she a great leader? Or perhaps both, and it varies from occasion to occasion?
I will point out, though, a point in favor of the great leader angle is the fact that an item already exists within game that allow you to teleport to an individual's location: the Eternity Ring, available from the Eternal Bonding ceremony. It's not beyond reason to assume that the WoL has similar items which she distributes to other great warriors she meets on her travels, in order to have a party at the ready at a moment's notice - even for "there's no way she'd have the opportunity to assemble a party ahead of time" moments like Thordan.
It's definitely the case that the WoL gets the lion's share of the CREDIT for each victory, whether solo or on a team - but that's pretty common in real life history, as well. Great generals are lauded for their victories, but it's not as though they single-handedly did all the fighting. Many of them were not skilled warriors themselves, at all, in fact.