You're alluding to something that is a numbers issue. Which I agree that DPS output would have to be tweaked in some way. The focus of my criticism is the gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
Dualcast was added because FFV's developers needed a gimmick for RDM to fit into that game's job system. At the baseline the job had nothing to offer in terms of learnable abilities that you could cross class, so Sakaguchi & Co. had to make something up. Dualcast as a small part of the greater whole of RDM doesn't bother me (which is why even my redesign of the job has it), but it's pretty clear FFXIV's devs wanted it to be the focus of the job's gameplay, to the point the job's systems were all built around it.Quote:
And while Dualcast is added in FFV that's only two games previously with Red Mages, not exactly a large number. And Dualcast helped solidify Red Mages as being speedy casters, along with the weakness in terms of spell strength. So it's very much a defining part of the job.
If we want to go into detail, the main adjustments needed for the Sage design to be complete would be changing the way the spenders work (I'm partial to reaching 80/80, casting not-Flare to spend the black mana bar, casting not-Holy to spend the white mana bar, then casting not-Meteor as the big finish), and changing Dualcast into a mechanic that reduces cast time as you continuously cast spells (stacks 4 or 5 times, reducing casting time by up to 40-50%).Quote:
As for Sage versus Red Mage, the two are very similar in a lot of ways so it's hardly surprising that you could rework Red Mage to be like Sage. Though even then, you're talking about removing eight different moves which is a decent amount, and Sages are more known for being... well, slow and heavy spellcasters, not quick and speedy like Red Mages. So you'd have to make more changes than just chucking the sword skills.
My point in all this is that sword use is very disconnected, to the point of being almost token. I've never seen that as a good thing.
The way I see it is that you can have RDM without Dualcast, but you can't have RDM without the sword. The sword has been part of its aesthetic since the start of the series, and with that came the idea that RDM is hardier than your average caster in combat and could pull their weight in a melee. No one would expect RDM swordplay to be doing fighter/warrior-level DPS, but would expect them to supplement said swordplay with magic.Quote:
In terms of Red Mage throughout the series, I'm not sure how important the swordplay element really wound up being. It's an aspect, but most of their gimmick has been speedy spellcasting I would argue.
The enchanted sword thing is fairly recent. It was one of the good evolutions of concept seen in FFXI. The difference is that FFXI's RDM could cast Enfire on themselves and whack away at a mob while also being able to cast spells as needed. FFXIV's RDM has to get permission from a mana bar before their sword swings are worthwhile.Quote:
The sword is leaning more towards being enchanted (which is what we already have here), and is mostly a means to round out their kit a bit.
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05-23-2020, 07:54 AMDuelle
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05-23-2020, 01:15 PMMirronTulaxia
1. My point is that it's a different role, and you are wanting them to more fully be a hybrid. It isn't just a numbers issue, it's a full on gameplay issue. There is a difference between melee and ranged. I suppose they could have just gone full on melee caster but as there isn't a role for that it wasn't likely.
2. Regardless of why Dualcast was added almost thirty years ago is irrelevant to where Red Mage is now. Red Mage was originally added because of Bards in DnD, but it's not like we have them doing minstrel stuff, so the origin only carries so much weight. And I would argue that while Dualcast itself may not be a major part of the job what Dualcast represents (again, speedy spellcaster) has helped to solidify Red Mage from here on out. It's a fast spellcaster, relying on quantity not quality with its spells (further represented by not using high end spells), and this carries over in to how it fights with a sword too, using a rapier and such. Prior to that? It's only real defining feature was simply being a jack of all trades, this helped to give it something of a trade to call its own.
3. Again, Sages aren't about speedy casting. And removing swords is again removing a decent chunk of their current moveset (I want to say somewhere between a third and a fourth). Given that Red Mages are specifically Caster DPS, and that when you look at the original combination (swords, black magic, white magic) swords only represent a third, that's a perfectly respectable amount. If anything it's White Mages that have the right to complain about it given that it just gets to be different forms of Black Magic basically instead of a more healing approach.
4. Being part of its aesthetic and being a major part of how it actually deals damage are different things. But ultimately? No one wanted Red Mages. You wanted Dualcast. This has been the case almost all of the time Red Mages have been a thing. The exceptions are XI and the first two games where it couldn't Dualcast. And in XI you weren't ultimately doing sword stuff the majority of the time (granted I don't think spamming Refresh is the best of situations either (I'm being hyperbolic in case you want to go after me on that, and it may have changed recently but I still strongly doubt the sword skills were why you did Red Mage)). At the end of the day swords are still part of the aesthetic. And arguably more important than it has been previously because it actually has the means to work with its sword skills.
5. FFXI was almost twenty years ago, it's not "recent" when the series has only been around 33 years (not even that yet). That's over half the time the series has been around that Red Mages have had enchanted swords. Now we can argue about how consistently they depict that in terms of depictions of Red Mages, but there haven't been a ton of job system games since then, and of them FFD and XIV both have Red Mages with enchanted swords too, while the only exception off the top of my head is XII. It also perfectly ties in how Red Mages should work. Their sword skills are bad. They are not as good as a Warrior. How do they keep up on the front lines? Magic.
6. Long and the short of it, ideally a Red Mage would be a Melee Magic job. We don't have that. So they went with a Caster job as opposed to making it a Melee DPS with some magic, because ultimately it is a mage, even in the title. And even being a Caster DPS, it has multiple sword skills. The entire point of its gimmick is to build up to a fancy flashy sword move or two. It's not a melee fighter, two thirds of it in terms of how it's a hybrid is magic related, so ultimately it has more than enough. Not getting into the fact, again, that there is a difference between a melee fighter and a ranged fighter in this game. Having a character who plays around in both enough to be a full on hybrid would be problematic. Since we don't have Melee Magic jobs (and even then I would still keep the focus on magic because it's a mage, they would just be short ranged spells most likely) it has to bend a bit. Compared to other jobs it got off pretty lightly as it still really feels like a Red Mage. It's a fast mage with some fancy sword stuff. -
05-23-2020, 03:21 PMTlamila6-7% would be without without manafication and without accelleration cause that's way too lowQuote:
Originally Posted by Klaleara
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05-24-2020, 01:57 AMKlalearaI mean, I did say without manafication. But accelleration was there. You're in melee for 4 seconds, and it takes about a 60 seconds to get enough mana. But procs are random, so there is always give and take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlamila
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05-24-2020, 12:02 PMDuelleYou're not understanding what I'm asking for if that's your impression. What I'm asking for is a caster that stands in the front lines, uses the sword in their hand more than just once in a while and tosses spells at the enemy, with a mechanic that ties sword use and spell casting to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
What we got was a ranged caster than seldom uses the sword, and by design is encouraged to squander mobility tools becuz k00l fakt0r (unless you just stand stacked behind the mob with everyone else).
This takes us to how tricky it is to define a hybrid. Reducing RDM to Dualcast is as bad as reducing the job's raison d'etre to Refresh back in FFXI.Quote:
And I would argue that while Dualcast itself may not be a major part of the job what Dualcast represents (again, speedy spellcaster) has helped to solidify Red Mage from here on out. It's a fast spellcaster, relying on quantity not quality with its spells (further represented by not using high end spells), and this carries over in to how it fights with a sword too, using a rapier and such. Prior to that? It's only real defining feature was simply being a jack of all trades, this helped to give it something of a trade to call its own.
It works as a perk that is part of a greater whole, but not as the job's reason to exist.
Scholars weren't about summoning faeries, and blue mages weren't relegated to being circus performers (or professional wrestlers if you go by how the BLU questline ended), either, so this doesn't really hold.Quote:
Again, Sages aren't about speedy casting.
Residual aether around the caster is already a thing (and is why RDM has Dualcast in this game), so that idea can be modified from instant spells to an effect that makes it easier to form the spell. Could even tie it to a memory mechanic as a nod to Tellah.
Riposte, Swerchhau, Redoublement, and Moullinet prior to Shadowbringers. With Shadowbringers throw in Reprise and Engagement if you want to be technical about it. This is not counting the mobility skills. These could be replaced by things like Water and Blizzard spells, higher tiers of the 6 elemental spells, possibly additional/situational mana spenders and abilities that manipulate the mana bars.Quote:
And removing swords is again removing a decent chunk of their current moveset (I want to say somewhere between a third and a fourth).
The systems currently in place would not fall to pieces if you took the sword away, which ties back to my point of the sword being almost token.
I guess I should have mentioned that up until this game RDM not only could use swords but also equip armor (which in this game's terms means that RDM should be able to share gear with MNK at the least, DRG at the most). In games where your MP doesn't regenerate and you can take one action per turn, a RDM with a sword will help more than a BLM or WHM with staves.Quote:
Being part of its aesthetic and being a major part of how it actually deals damage are different things.
That said, the single player games rewarded taking advantage of elemental weaknesses, and in that context you're going to have that RDM use elemental spells because you want the most bang out of your buck per turn.
While the playerbase abused RDM's access to Refresh to the point it burned people out and created a lot of bad habits, it was a job that could enhance itself with magic to make up for what it lacked naturally. Gain spells, enspells (especially combined with Composure's 300% damage increase), and Phalanx are what I call a good direction for the job to evolve.Quote:
And in XI you weren't ultimately doing sword stuff the majority of the time. Granted, I don't think spamming Refresh is the best of situations either (I'm being hyperbolic in case you want to go after me on that, and it may have changed recently but I still strongly doubt the sword skills were why you did Red Mage).
Of course, XI's RDM has a slew of other problems. Healers are still in short supply, so RDMs get drafted for that for events. Doesn't help that a lot of things either have mass dispels, AoE silences or AoE paralyzes (3 things that are the absolute bane of RDMs). There's also issues with gear design, since RDM is either put on equipment that is a tier behind what other jobs get or are put on stupidly overpowered equipment (like Crocea Mors).
There are much better ways to implement sword use than as mana bar spenders. Proc mechanics and buff rotations (spells buff the sword, the sword buffs spells) being two of several examples.Quote:
At the end of the day swords are still part of the aesthetic. And arguably more important than it has been previously because it actually has the means to work with its sword skills.
Yeah that was my looking only at the numbered mainline titles. Also this is in play.Quote:
FFXI was almost twenty years ago, it's not "recent" when the series has only been around 33 years (not even that yet).
Indeed. RDM would use magic to make up for the difference. The rub is in how to go about it. Self-enchants work. Procs from sword swings that make spells cast instantly or with reduced cast times works. Magic lowering a target's resistance to sword swings works. Sword swings lowering a target's resistance to magic works. Note how none of these go for the "spam spells until you're given permission to swing your sword" approach.Quote:
It also perfectly ties in how Red Mages should work. Their sword skills are bad. They are not as good as a Warrior. How do they keep up on the front lines? Magic.
Agreed.Quote:
Long and the short of it, ideally a Red Mage would be a Melee Magic job.
And the fact they took this direction opens them up to be criticized. Which is what I've done since the job was introduced.Quote:
We don't have that. So they went with a Caster job as opposed to making it a Melee DPS with some magic, because ultimately it is a mage, even in the title.
I disagree, as the gameplay leaves the sword very much underrepresented.Quote:
It's not a melee fighter, two thirds of it in terms of how it's a hybrid is magic related, so ultimately it has more than enough.
There are ways to design around that difference. First things that come to mind are limiting spell use from range or make it deal overall less damage from range (in addition of having few or no mechanics that proc or activate outside of melee range). Meaning that you'll want to stand in the front lines if you want to deal the job's intended DPS, but are also not totally boned number-wise when you have to get away from the boss for whatever reason (you'd do better than the DRG using Piercing Talon, but notably worse than the BLMs and SMNs in the group).Quote:
Not getting into the fact, again, that there is a difference between a melee fighter and a ranged fighter in this game.
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This all said, if we want to keep the current design but increase the sword's role in some capacity, I see no other alternatives aside oGCD skills that interact with buffs like Verfire/Verstone Ready. -
05-24-2020, 11:18 PMMirronTulaxia
1. Yes, because Ranged Magic is the role it has. What you want is for it to be a Ranged Caster and Melee X (whether Caster or Physical is irrelevant). I'm well aware of what you want, that doesn't change the issue with the request with regards to it being a hybrid request. At best you could ask for a Melee Caster, but that's the same as making up an entirely new role given how they divided DPS.
2. I don't think it's tricky to define a hybrid. Red Mages are pretty straight forward. "Using a combination of swords, white magic, and black magic (one could expand to low level magic broadly, as this is ho it worked in Explorers, XI doesn't quite work in a low level magic way but MMO's also can't do proper hybrids too well) a Red Mage fights swiftly and precisely to defeat enemies and support allies". Something pithy like that at least. Red Mages are not as good at any of those categories. What helps tie things together and make them something noteworthy is their ability to combine effects (magic sword and dual casting), and part of how that works is they emphasize speed. In comparison Sage, as kind of a counterpart, is much more of the slow and heavy wins the race kind of fighter, at least in the games that give it much of an identity.
3. Scholars aren't really consistent enough in the three games they show up previously to really make much of any sort of identity out of them. Between Explorers and FFIII I feel they gave Sage enough. They certainly could do it, but ultimately the argument you're making applies to Red Mage as well so it's kind of moot. As for Blue Mage it fits perfectly fine.
4. The system would fall to pieces if you just removed the sword skills, because you're also removing the Enchantment aspect. If you removed any of the three current components the job would not work without replacing them.
5. Eh, in terms of armor that's all over the place. Sometimes they're still solidly Caster tier gear, sometimes they get bumped up an armor class. And then XII has them with heavy armor if I recall right. Nope, double checked, was still Mystic. Surprising given they're called a Battlemage there as opposed to just a standard mage, you'd think they'd want better armor. *shrugs* Regardless, armor isn't exactly a consistent point. TA/TA2 they're just wearing basic mage armor for instance. The key thing, to me, that makes up for their armor is, again, they use magic. As far as how you use Red Mages that's ultimately personal preference. When I played Dimensions I used an all mage team and just stuck everyone in the back row with Bows (or Whips for the odd Summoner). It really wasn't as huge a difference as you might think in terms of the damage output the Red Mage had.
6. My point with XI was simply that in XI Red Mages are still not "guy who spends half his time in melee, half his time at range". There are a huge slew of things we could get into with regards to XI or any FF really, but keeping the broad points simple and straight forward is best.
7. At the end of the day, you could have had a Melee DPS with some magic, or a Magic DPS with some physical. Of the two options neither of them are going to be a 1:1 hybrid. Arguably Red Mages aren't that, and they haven't been for a while (even arguably from inception, though that's a whole different subject). As is, we have a Magic DPS who uses magic primarily and enchants their sword for flashy things. That's pretty fitting for a Red Mage. There are a ton of ways they could have gone with it. Making it fit multiple roles isn't a good one though. Nor is giving it a unique role all its own.
8. I mean, the gap between games now is a lot higher. XV took ten years to come out after all. And from when it was originally announced as Versus the only mainline game we've had is XIV, which had a whole overhaul and three expansions (I could be a bit off on the details, but the point is clear I trust). But outside of main games you can look at other games to see what they're doing. Explorers and Dimensions, as the primary job games to me since then, are good examples. XII kind of works but has the usual Ivalice oddities.
9. As I said, you could have had a Melee DPS who uses magic much more rarely and basically inverting things. Maybe it would be a Melee DPS that focuses on long term enchantments. Personally, for me Red Mages should be, you know, a Mage, it's in the name. So that requires being a Caster DPS. Note that in a perfect world I would want a full on Melee Mage category (Green, Blue, Red, no idea on a fourth off the top of my head, maybe Geomancer?), but we have to work with what we have. Jobs have to be built to match the system.
10. You are welcome to attempt to criticize the decision, but so far you have yet to present a truly workable solution. Here are your three options. "A: Things stay as they are. B: They invert it. Melee DPS with a focus on fencing and magic is as "rare" as physical is to you currently. C: Limited Job. If they go this route they can do whatever." None of those options are D: Make an entirely new role just for Red Mage, or E: Let Red Mages fully blur the line between melee and ranged. If your preference is one of B or C whatever, that's ultimately just subjective. But you're clearly pushing for D/E which isn't a reasonable request.
11. The sword is 1/3 of the primary aspect of Red Mages. The remaining 2/3 are White Magic and Black Magic. 1/3 of the current Red Mage, roughly, relies on the sword. That is a proportionate ratio all things considered. The issue with Red Mages is not "they don't have enough sword" but that White Magic is ultimately just recolored Black Magic, but even that is inevitable given the job role.
12. Doing worse than the two other Caster DPS for... no real uptake is not a terribly great balancing point. If your design relies on Red Mages being subpar at ranged that's not really a good argument.
13. I imagine future updates will add things at roughly a proportional rate. Just double checking to make sure I'm not missing anything if anything Swords are the only one of the three categories who got anything new from the post 70 abilities, the magic things were original to Red Mage (or at least how I read Scorch). -
05-25-2020, 01:02 AMDuelleThat's not what I'm asking for. To avoid further back and forth, I suggest you read the write up in my sig. It's far from perfect, but reflects the direction I would have wanted the job to take.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
My point is that one should avoid boiling hybrids down to a gimmick. Which is why I take issue with Dualcast being treated as RDM's main "thing", because much like Refresh it undermines the rest of what comes with the job.Quote:
I don't think it's tricky to define a hybrid.
It actually doesn't, because despite my issues with the job's gameplay, RDM is still a guy with a sword that casts magic. Discounting said gameplay, RDM has what it needs to stay up to concept.Quote:
They certainly could do it, but ultimately the argument you're making applies to Red Mage as well so it's kind of moot.
I did mention things you could replace them with. You regardless would have to fill those ability gaps with something to keep this hypothetical Sage in line with all other jobs in the game.Quote:
The system would fall to pieces if you just removed the sword skills, because you're also removing the Enchantment aspect. If you removed any of the three current components the job would not work without replacing them.
This depends on the content. I could melee, weaponskill, skillchain and magic burst in certain content (even spot heal if needed). Stuff like Dynamis and Omen were the bane of my existence for the aforementioned dispels/silences/paralyzes that forced me to stay far away from the battle.Quote:
My point with XI was simply that in XI Red Mages are still not "guy who spends half his time in melee, half his time at range".
I'm not on board with this, because the current implementation is slightly less insulting than the sword mage from Revelation Online (which never uses the sword and carries it as a stat stick).Quote:
As is, we have a Magic DPS who uses magic primarily and enchants their sword for flashy things. That's pretty fitting for a Red Mage.
Once again, I'll point to the write up in my sig.Quote:
As I said, you could have had a Melee DPS who uses magic much more rarely and basically inverting things. Maybe it would be a Melee DPS that focuses on long term enchantments. Personally, for me Red Mages should be, you know, a Mage, it's in the name. So that requires being a Caster DPS. Note that in a perfect world I would want a full on Melee Mage category (Green, Blue, Red, no idea on a fourth off the top of my head, maybe Geomancer?), but we have to work with what we have. Jobs have to be built to match the system.
The white magic thing is more because of how they established white magic in FFXIV. I actually addressed this to a degree in my write up because I believe there should be a distinction in the purpose of the spells RDM has access to. Black magic to hurt things, white magic to protect and heal, sword to swing and stab.Quote:
The sword is 1/3 of the primary aspect of Red Mages. The remaining 2/3 are White Magic and Black Magic. 1/3 of the current Red Mage, roughly, relies on the sword. That is a proportionate ratio all things considered. The issue with Red Mages is not "they don't have enough sword" but that White Magic is ultimately just recolored Black Magic, but even that is inevitable given the job role.
RDM being able to deal good damage at melee range and comparable damage to BLM or SMN at range would be both overpowered and undermine the melee aspect of the job. Keeping its damage below the intended DPS at range not only prevents it from eclipsing other DPS or give it undue mechanical advantages, but is also in line with the concept of RDM's raw magical damage losing out to the "pure" casters that don't have to stand in melee range (because just like RDM uses magic to make up for what it lacks in brute strength, it can and should use the sword to compensate for what it lacks in firepower).Quote:
Doing worse than the two other Caster DPS for... no real uptake is not a terribly great balancing point. If your design relies on Red Mages being subpar at ranged that's not really a good argument.
It's a bit of a wash. Reprise is okay to a degree, Engagement is a decent idea (though I'd love the 200 potency to go to Engagement, remove the damage component from Displacement and give the two abilities their own cooldowns). I could call them steps in the right direction if I dim the lights enough, as the job has remained relatively untouched in terms of gameplay.Quote:
I imagine future updates will add things at roughly a proportional rate. Just double checking to make sure I'm not missing anything if anything Swords are the only one of the three categories who got anything new from the post 70 abilities, the magic things were original to Red Mage (or at least how I read Scorch).
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05-25-2020, 07:59 AMShurrikhanThis seems contradictory. If not for the quality of its spells, whereby RDM has the choice of higher-damage spells that would normally be non-optimal, Dualcast would not increase the relative quantity of spells in any way. 5 seconds of casting over two skills being newly doable in a total of 2.5 seconds of cast time but still costing 5 seconds of uptime is still a cast per 2.5 seconds. Your mobility may increase, but your ppm hasn't. You can only increase the quantity of spells if where newly permitted to use spells longer than your global by either (1) compensation for the penalty or (2) removing the penalty (i.e. that cast time in excess of one's GCD). In either case, the ability to cast a 2-GCD-lengths-cast spell in the time that you would have cast a single-GCD-length spell is every bit as much a potency-bonus (quality) as a bonus to cast count (quality). And, in that, only the pacing or regularity of the potency/cast-count bonus is unique to RDM. It's hardly enough to make an RDM an RDM, unless we can argue equally that BLM is the product of Ley Lines and Triplecast even when exempting its nuke casts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
Except if the two function in a completely, fundamentally different manner because of having moved from a turn-based system (where cast count was doubled) to a real-time, GCD-bound system (where it effectively just provides vastly enhanced stutter-stepping), then how is it possibly going to be all that's necessary to make an RDM an RDM?Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
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05-26-2020, 08:18 PMMirronTulaxia1. What you created, for starters, drops the balance of White and Black and Sword which is a trait of the current design. The White aspect of it is mostly fluff. While I have issues with Red Mages current White Magic it's kind of necessary for things. And what you're proposing is just a melee DPS really as well. The range aspect is kind of moot because you're expected to spend your time in melee range the entire time, using buffs to make the casting not an issue. So yes, what you're proposing then is a Melee Caster, which isn't an option. That or it's a Ranged Caster which... does most of its stuff at melee range, which again, isn't an option. While you aren't proposing a hybrid then you're proposing a new role, which still isn't reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
2. What you propose is a gimmick still. All jobs, ultimately, are gimmicks. They have to have some basic minimum functionality, and beyond that they have gimmicks that flesh them out a bit more. Nor is Dualcast the "gimmick" of Red Mage, it's the utilization of Black/White Magic in tandem and then finishing with a Sword. You keep focusing on Dualcast when that's really not what I'd call the main thing you're focusing on while using a Red Mage.
3. That... is my point. Red Mage is still fitting the job, even if you want to argue they tweaked it some, so if you're for tweaking Sage to fit what we have then Red Mage is perfectly justified as well.
4. If you have to replace the abilities then that means they're critical to the current design. They aren't just fluff. You can say they should have more, but they aren't minor. Which is what you keep implying if not outright stating.
5. You hypothetically could, sure. That's probably not the optimal play most of the time in a group setting though. Being able to do something that isn't optimal doesn't exactly carry a lot of value.
6. The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset. And the Sword part is critical to how it plays. It is not melee mostly with the rare range option, nor is that a role option.
7. As I said, what you have doesn't actually work in the current system. You've either made a Melee Physical DPS or a suboptimal Ranged Caster DPS. The former has too much magic really, and ultimately is emphasizing sword far, far too much. It's not the defining feature of the job, at all. Ultimately what you're putting forward doesn't fit what it's like in the series, where it is marginally better than other mages with a weapon outright.
8. The White Magic thing isn't because of how White Magic was established, it's because, again, that's the role it is. It's not a Healer. It's a Ranged DPS. That means that the other moves it has revolve around that concept, because that's how the system works. You can't have a job that is equally as good at healing as it is at damage/support functions, which is ultimately what Red Mages are in the core games. It's also incredibly bad at those functions because of that, which isn't a great tradeoff for a balanced game either.
9. And the current Red Mage does use Sword to bump up its DPS. At the end of the day though, it's a Ranged Caster. Again, it has to be able to be roughly comparable to the other two, or it gets dumped. A Ranged Caster who has to spend most of its time at melee range isn't going to fly. Like I said, we had a fourth DPS slot, or a Support slot? Red Mage would fit there. But as we only have three DPS slots, Healer, and Tank then it needs to fit into one of those five roles, and it needs to be comparable to the others in it. It can have a unique gimmick, but at the end of the day it needs to be able to do what the other two can.
10. To you it's a wash, but regardless it gained more Sword skills than it did Black or White. Sword is not being discounted just because it isn't taking up 80% of the moveset. And like I said, you could definitely make a Melee DPS Red Mage. But if you do that you need to tone down the magic.
Shurrikhan
1. I'm talking about Red Mages in the sense of the series as a whole. What you seem to be discussing is specifically Red Mage in XIV. As what you're discussing is Red Mage Dualcast in the context of XIV you're really taking my comment out of context. -
05-27-2020, 12:25 AMDuelleYou say this like it's a bad thing. The balance gauge isn't the only way you can implement a resource for a job like RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia
Given the way DPS jobs are structured in this game, there's not much that can be done with White Magic as is. RDM having a heal, the ability to rez (which carries a lot of weight because this game allows mid-combat rezzes), and a form of mitigation (Phalanx) is plenty and in line with what one would expect to see in its spellbook. Other White Magic is either stuff like Regen (which would cause issues if RDM were to have it), Esuna (which is a healer ability), Protect/Shell (which have been removed from the game), and status ailments (the bulk of which bosses would be immune to). The most one can hope for is some form of utility and praying that the devs don't decide it's a) overpowered and warranting a nerf, or b) nerf your DPS into the ground because of it.Quote:
The White aspect of it is mostly fluff. While I have issues with Red Mages current White Magic it's kind of necessary for things.
As I've said in my prior post, RDM would use magic to make up for what it lacks in brute strength, and use the sword to make up for what it lacks in firepower. And to do so you need mechanics to tie them to one another, otherwise you have two aspects that are segregated from one another for no reason.Quote:
And what you're proposing is just a melee DPS really as well. The range aspect is kind of moot because you're expected to spend your time in melee range the entire time, using buffs to make the casting not an issue. So yes, what you're proposing then is a Melee Caster, which isn't an option.
Now I do have to ask, why isn't it an option? My gut tells me that you'll lean on the "ranged caster" role label, though then I'll point out all it would take is changing that label to just "caster DPS" (which would change absolutely nothing for SMN and BLM). If your concern is DPS output, that's a numbers issue and can be adjusted under the hood.
The reason I use the word "gimmick" is because they tend to become the focus of a concept or design, to the detriment of other pieces of that greater whole. This is why I mentioned Refresh, because the way XI's developers and the community treated Refresh was to the detriment of RDM's other aspects.Quote:
What you propose is a gimmick still. All jobs, ultimately, are gimmicks. They have to have some basic minimum functionality, and beyond that they have gimmicks that flesh them out a bit more.
As for my mentioning Dualcast, I do so because the gameplay is designed around it. While you may not think Dualcast is at the center of RDM, but the developers certainly seem to based on the evidence at hand. To offer a comparison, this would like if they had designed all of PLD's systems around Cover or NIN around the Throw command, regardless of the consequences.
What I'm saying is that ignoring the gameplay, if you describe the job as one that has access to some white magic, some black magic, and has weaponskills, it fits the description of a RDM. Now if you say "this thing focuses on building black and white magic bars for most of its gameplay, and gets to swing its sword only when the bars are almost full", you might get confused looks because that sounds a bit odd. If you go further and say "also the sword doesn't really have a presence outside of the thing with the mana bars", you might get someone asking "why is the sword there, then? just for looks?".Quote:
Red Mage is still fitting the job, even if you want to argue they tweaked it some, so if you're for tweaking Sage to fit what we have then Red Mage is perfectly justified as well.
You have to replace what's taken out because the jobs in this game are built around a template (14-ish skills in the 1-50 range, then either an ability or trait gained every 2 levels after that), and because it'd make no sense to leave a number of blank abilities. Also, replacing melee spenders with ranged spenders isn't the most difficult thing in the universe.Quote:
If you have to replace the abilities then that means they're critical to the current design. They aren't just fluff. You can say they should have more, but they aren't minor. Which is what you keep implying if not outright stating.
I didn't mention this earlier, but it looks like you're counting abilities on a list instead of looking at the gameplay. The gameplay has you spamming magic for 18 GCDs assuming you get no Verfire/Verstone procs (I've been there). That's how long it takes to hit 80/80 before you can actually swing the sword. You spend 3 GCDs using the sword and then Verflare or Verholy. Post Shadowbringers, Scorch slightly speeds things up (down to roughly 14 GCDs between sword swings) and the changes to Acceleration have further helped in that regard. That said, we still have ways to go.Quote:
The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset. And the Sword part is critical to how it plays. It is not melee mostly with the rare range option, nor is that a role option.
I'd call it a run-of-the-mill modern MMO hybrid. If that's a prohibited term, caster DPS with utility. I designed it so that its intended DPS is on the front lines because it's a guy that wields sword and magic.Quote:
You've either made a Melee Physical DPS or a suboptimal Ranged Caster DPS.
The sword is a part of the job, and instead of treating it as something that's there out of obligation (or token), I've opted to give it a greater presence in the job's general gameplay.Quote:
The former has too much magic really, and ultimately is emphasizing sword far, far too much.
Also, I don't consider a two-weaponskill combo that allows the next spell to be instant cast "emphasizing the sword too much". Moreso when said instant spell can proc an additional instant cast, and when said proc can be manipulated by oGCDs and other abilities. If the concern is the spender combo I created, that can be changed to spells if need be (Verfire III => Verblizzard III => Verthunder III come to mind), though the finisher would have to be a sword skill (Death Blossom?).