Open Letter to the Devs Regarding Eden's Verse: Reflugence [Spoilers]

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Originally Posted by heiligeharmonie

I would have so been down with the outfit designs being more modest. Only reason I didn't request that was, I thought redesigning her bodies might have involved more work than swapping heads.

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A head swap would probably look weird. Ryne does not have the proportions of any elezen, and certainly not an adult one. And I think some fans might be upset to see an elezen's head transplanted on to what is clearly a hyur body. The head would have to look closer to Hilda (half elezen) to make this work. And maybe look a bit more youthful too, to fit the body. Ysayle's face is unmistakably that of an adult well past her teens. And in doing so we'd be back to square one with the outfits not looking appropriate for someone her age.

It would also go against lore a bit. The point of Ryne being the vessel for the summoning was for her to have control over it, so it only makes sense for the primal to look more like Ryne than Ysayle. She did essentially try to do exactly what Ysayle did, it just happens that the addition of also needing to control so much light made this an impossible task.

I am curious as to how the japanese fans are reacting to this. I don't approve of how skimpy the outfits are but I was far from surprised. Outfits like that are very common in anime, even on teens. I would have been surprised to see this happen in a western game, but not a japanese one.

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Originally Posted by heiligeharmonie

No one coming in to show support here does not mean they don't exist. Being a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong, nor does it guarantee the devs won't see my point, if they do end up seeing my letter.

I didn't post here looking for support from the community, nor did I expect it here, given what I've been told about the forum and what I've seen myself in the past. I posted here because it was the best way I knew to attempt to get something in front of the devs. I considered it a long shot.

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What matters when it comes to getting the developers’ attention is the number of “Likes” a post gets—basically the number of people that agree with a proposition made on here. They’ve gone on record before saying that they look at threads that have a lot of attention/“Likes” on the opening post. The NA Community Team passes on threads that meet those qualifications to the developers for review (the devs don’t really read NA/EU forums—can’t say the same for JP ones because of the lack of language barrier, but I wager they aren’t on there wading through threads that often during the work day). The Community Mods don’t actively send every request to them, nor do they really have time to do so. And the devs don’t have time to read every tiny complaint that falls on their desk, either.

If you wanted this heard, you would need support from the community to gain traction. Thus far, no one else is agreeing with your perceived issue. That’s why people keep telling you that it’s a YOU problem, not a problem with the E8 character model or with sexualizing a minor. Speaking for myself, I don’t even see the kind of stuff you posted in your opening post when it comes to any of the younger characters in this game. They’re just characters in a video game to me.

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Originally Posted by heiligeharmonie

I did think about that at first, believe me. But, with these versions of the primals supposedly being based on the WoL's recollections of the primals (despite how very DIFFERENT they end up looking lol), it could still make sense for Shiva to have Ysayle's face, given that she was the Shiva the WoL fought. Now, if we'd ever had a clear look at Saint Shiva's face, I'd be all for using that face (and actually, using the OG Minfilia's face on the Hydaelyn based form probably wouldn't be a terrible idea, in the spirit of not using baby's face, hmmm). My primary point is that depicting an under-aged character in the way that she has been is just...not a good look. I mean, if someone were to photoshop a real teenager's face onto a grown woman's nearly nude body, they'd get a big ass squint from a lot of people. I just don't believe that fictional children should be regarded any differently. If the devs don't agree, then I can't make them.

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Except Shiva isn't simply a recollection of our imagination. The Light overwhelms Ryne, thus making her become the vessel for Shiva's re-imagination. A better comparison is when we nearly succumb to Light in the MSQ. With this context, Shiva taking on the appearance of Ysayle makes little sense. The whole intent is Shiva representing the purity of Light, which often depicts nudity due to its association with innocence. Ryne is not meant to be sexualized. There's a reason we have to look away when she Undresses.

If your mind immediately jumps to cringe, well, that's a you problem.

While I can only give adoration for the fight's mechanics, music, and aesthetic of intertwining both shiva and Hydaelyn, I will have to say that I also shared that same unease. This might seem like a ludicrous idea, but I think? that the sexualisation of minors are generally frowned upon in the western world.. right? Which becomes more concerning given the adult demographic of this game's community. I'm also in deep disbelief that some people here are completely ignoring the sexual connotations of Ryne's new outfits. Her Hydaelyn form essentially has her garbed head to toe in a skin-tight suit with a half exposed chest and midriff that's accented by high heels. Surely in western cultures this has -some- level of sexuality associated with it that's made more disturbing when attached to a minor? Or have we truly lost ourselves to japanese anime culture where depicting this type of clothing on adolescents is considered the norm now.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except Shiva isn't simply a recollection of our imagination. The Light overwhelms Ryne, thus making her become the vessel for Shiva's re-imagination. A better comparison is when we nearly succumb to Light in the MSQ. With this context, Shiva taking on the appearance of Ysayle makes little sense. The whole intent is Shiva representing the purity of Light, which often depicts nudity due to its association with innocence. Ryne is not meant to be sexualized. There's a reason we have to look away when she Undresses.

If your mind immediately jumps to cringe, well, that's a you problem.

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And her manner of dress and the fight's lore can also have those connotations with purity and innocence. But it doesn't mean that her manner of dress doesn't also have sexual connotations, irregardless of whether the devs intended to or not.

It does give me that unsettling “Dress your child in a revealing outfit for the child beauty pageant” vibe. Because the devs did dress up their young character to be eye candy for the player-base.

Yet another person who doesn't care that we're beating up a little girl. Just that they're dressed in a bikini while we do it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well Ryne says at one point that Alisae and Alphinaud are around her age, so Ryne is 16 or 17. Though I doubt the twins haven't passed their birthday by now since ARR so maybe 17 - 18? Anyway point being, from that alone we know for a fact she is in her mid to late teens.

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Don't forget that twins also lived on Source for a year. They both are 17-18 there, if we imply that ARR+HW+SB magically happened in less than a year. That said, Ryne age range can go from 16 to 18, but nothing really stops SE from saying she's even 19. "Same age" is a vague criteria. And barking around until they openly say her age is just useless, really. Not to mention that her outfit wasn't even done this way for sexualisation purpose, but I guess no matter what we say, people will stick to their own ideas.

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Originally Posted by Breezelyn

Fiction =/= reality. Can people not grasp this? I get people have different opinions but Ryne is a FICTIONAL CHARACTER. FICTIONAL.
It's a video game. It's not meant to be real.

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As much as I am agree with is, just to be fair: games do have an influence on real life world, or rather, on what people find acceptable or not. Doesn't mean they need to change Eden Shiva design, though, because it has nothing to do with sexualisation. People should stop pushing the mindset "girl's bare skin = sex", that's what is really harmful. In the world where women for many years tried to say "no matter what I wear it doesn't mean I want this kind of attention" we now have... this kind of posts. In their best intentions, I guess, but as result achieving literally opposite results.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

Don't forget that twins also lived on Source for a year. They both are 17-18 there, if we imply that ARR+HW+SB magically happened in less than a year. That said, Ryne age range can go from 16 to 18, but nothing really stops SE from saying she's even 19. "Same age" is a vague criteria. And barking around until they openly say her age is just useless, really. Not to mention that her outfit wasn't even done this way for sexualisation purpose, but I guess no matter what we say, people will stick to their own ideas.

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An interesting thing to note is that the passage of time isn't the same on The Source and The First. So far it seems time passes faster (or at least sometimes does) on The First. So whenever the twins do get back to their real bodies they could be back in their 16 - 17 year old bodies again, but with an additional year or two of life experience due to their time in The First. This is very much a tangent that isn't really related to the thread, but I thought it was an interesting thing to point out.

I seriously doubt only a year has passed from ARR to ShB. To me it just seems ridiculous that all of that could happen in the space of a year. Two years seems much more plausible. I don't think SE ever explicitly said how much time has passed. I wonder if they only will when the twins finally get their growth spurt.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

As much as I am agree with is, just to be fair: games do have an influence on real life world, or rather, on what people find acceptable or not. Doesn't mean they need to change Eden Shiva design, though, because it has nothing to do with sexualisation. People should stop pushing the mindset "girl's bare skin = sex", that's what is really harmful. In the world where women for many years tried to say "no matter what I wear it doesn't mean I want this kind of attention" we now have... this kind of posts. In their best intentions, I guess, but as result achieving literally opposite results.

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It's different when a grown woman shows a lot of skin. They're more prepared to deal with a situation of someone being inappropriate with them than a teen would be. I think everyone should be able to dress how they want, and in an ideal world this is how it would be, but our world isn't ideal so we have creeps that give people trouble and second thoughts.

It's also not really that Ryne is showing so much skin, it's what specific skin she is showing. It's not just some thighs or arms. One outfit has very accentuated cleavage with a huge cut-out pointing to her crotch. Ryne in shorts and a t-shirt shows more skin than that, but due to the nature of how the skin is accentuated and where, that outfit would be considered very tame.

The outfit with the cut-out bothers me most because it very much highlights and points to parts of her body that would often be associated with sex. Her being wrapped up in a snake-like dragon bothers me less because the "clothing" isn't really pointing to any specific part of her body, so it's not drawing the eye to any one specific place as much as the cut-out outfit does. Not that it doesn't bother me though, because it does. Just less so.

In my opinion, you are very much over reacting, OP. Young girls in RL who are a similar age to Ryne wear and do stuff that is far more sexualised. As a mother and grandmother of girls, I worry far more about that than I do a fantasy avatar in a game. Maybe channel your energy and outrage into doing something about RL problems?

I am stunned this even occurred to you as being something to make a fuss about. I have done the fight and never even noticed what Shiva was wearing