SE needs to be more creative when balancing party damage utility classes.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

That's true of most rpgs. Ultimately, everything in any kit has to either:

1) Solve a problem

or

2) Delay losing to a problem long enough to execute 1.

If the boss is the problem, then solutions to the problem will be necessary. Damage is the only solution to problems in this game; other rpgs with other solutions just have a different name for damage. Healing and defensive utility and even doing mechanics only exists to buy time to solve the problem--if you don't have to do it, it doesn't help you solve the problem.

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I agree, and I'd say it's the game's fault. The fact that it is possible to keep 100% dps uptime in almost every fight (not counting forced downtime like jumps and cutscenes) tells a lot about how the game works.

There's no downtime to block attacks, no downtime to dodge attacks, no downtime because the boss moved unpredictably and you broke your combo, no downtime because you used a slower combo, got smacked in the head and sent flying through the arena.

You execute your rotation while not standing in orange and that's it. No risk-reward, just don't die and keep attacking.
There's no evade or defense builds simply because most damage is avoidable, and all unavoidable damage can be healed with ease.
And most importantly, there's no unpredictable factor that warrants a safety net.

Learn the fight's choreography, gear up, and perfect your rotation.
That's how the game works, it just doesn't give us any means nor reason to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lodi

I agree, and I'd say it's the game's fault. The fact that it is possible to keep 100% dps uptime in almost every fight (not counting forced downtime like jumps and cutscenes) tells a lot about how the game works.

There's no downtime to block attacks, no downtime to dodge attacks, no downtime because the boss moved unpredictably and you broke your combo, no downtime because you used a slower combo, got smacked in the head and sent flying through the arena.

You execute your rotation while not standing in orange and that's it. No risk-reward, just don't die and keep attacking.
There's no evade or defense builds simply because most damage is avoidable, and all unavoidable damage can be healed with ease.
And most importantly, there's no unpredictable factor that warrants a safety net.

Learn the fight's choreography, gear up, and perfect your rotation.
That's how the game works, it just doesn't give us any means nor reason to do otherwise.

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admittedly, ranged melee take this to braindead levels. All other classes need far more situational awareness (especially blm which gets penalized for moving at all).

I would love for square to release an April fool's patch that completely sends the balance sideways and just leave it that way for a week. Not only will they be able to gain insight into the playerbase and how the game can be played, they might find some interesting new ideas. Not to mention the people who follow and add to the meta might have a field day with it.

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Originally Posted by Allooutrick

I would love for square to release an April fool's patch that completely sends the balance sideways and just leave it that way for a week. Not only will they be able to gain insight into the playerbase and how the game can be played, they might find some interesting new ideas. Not to mention the people who follow and add to the meta might have a field day with it.

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I’ve brought this up in a tank thread. Just jack tank damage to DPS levels for a day see what happens. Get the healers in on it too.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

admittedly, ranged melee take this to braindead levels. All other classes need far more situational awareness (especially blm which gets penalized for moving at all).

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Even then, there's plenty of instant cast, ranged actions for the supposedly slower ones. If you know a fight well enough, you'll never lose more than a GCD due to forced movement.

With good planning, SMN can get up to 9 instant GCDs before having to use Ruin II. And that's without counting the trances.
BLM can stack 2 Xenos, Triplecast and Swiftcast for forced movement, and can teleport to Ley lines and allies. Worst case scenario, Scathe.
RDM has 3s of free movement every 5s, can move freely during the Enchanted combo (10s) and can walk around at will with E.Reprise.

Even with our turret casters, moving isn't such a big issue nowadays.
It's often a loss, sure, but rarely a huge one. And we keep getting more and more tools to make movement a non issue.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Oh I agree. I disliked Guild Wars 2 for that very reason.

But the community seems to push a “All damage or nothing” mentality. If something isn’t doing damage, why use it? Better to delete it to free up space. Heck I’m surprised we kept the graze skills on Ranged. Now it’s on Square to make skills that aren’t damage amps but the community will in turn scorne those or decry that such skills are so mandatory it makes the class an auto pick.

If damage is the only thing to care about, and the only thing the community will seem to care about; I would think it better to change the game to reflect that demand and expectation.

Now, I would drop the game. But I’d respect the game for wearing its colors on it’s sleeve rather than having this weird Trinity “But DPS is your actual job” that it seems to actually be.

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I on my part loved Guild Wars 2 for it in trying something different and going away from the holy trinity, of course those are opinions, the game simply is not made for such traditional ways i say and it showed with dungeons not worked out well that way.

But then there is content that needs a Tank and Healer as example, it just not forces you that much, that i like simply due you are not pushed into full damage, you can be a hybrid and true supporter. Unlike sadly most supposed supportes we have in FFXIV here.

I rather have such as option tho, GW2 for variety while other MMO's are more classic with the holy trinity. Not like one of them, not play it, it is optional, simple as it is.

But then i would also enjoy them looking at alot of balance issues, especially healers they broken beyond repair aslong you are not the healing god WHM as example.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Oh I agree. I disliked Guild Wars 2 for that very reason.

But the community seems to push a “All damage or nothing” mentality. If something isn’t doing damage, why use it? Better to delete it to free up space. Heck I’m surprised we kept the graze skills on Ranged. Now it’s on Square to make skills that aren’t damage amps but the community will in turn scorne those or decry that such skills are so mandatory it makes the class an auto pick.

If damage is the only thing to care about, and the only thing the community will seem to care about; I would think it better to change the game to reflect that demand and expectation.

Now, I would drop the game. But I’d respect the game for wearing its colors on it’s sleeve rather than having this weird Trinity “But DPS is your actual job” that it seems to actually be.

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All that isn't even a role balance or job identity issue so much as a general mechanical one, though. Tanks and Healers feel compelling when they have enough to heal or to tank that they not only allow for a more efficient investment of resources (as compared to taking some a full party of amorphous omnirole jobs) but to feel like they're doing something unique or to a unique enough extent that they feel cohesively distinct. That takes mechanics, systems, events, triggers, etc., enough to allow for those things.

But here in XIV, the toolkits are the least of the problem: the fights themselves have too few, too regular, and too scripted events for which short-term tasks (efficiency breakpoints, including... survival) to interestingly intervene in or to vary the feel of all our long-term tasks (the encounter's condition for completion, in our case always just reducing enemy HP to 0).

This has a huge impact even when comparing how fights feel between two non-trinity games. The one that has more distinct and impactful tasks punctuating or altering the general rhythm of combat tends to, if all else is nearly equal, feel far more compelling.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

All that isn't even a role balance or job identity issue so much as a general mechanical one, though. Tanks and Healers feel compelling when they have enough to heal or to tank that they not only allow for a more efficient investment of resources (as compared to taking some a full party of amorphous omnirole jobs) but to feel like they're doing something unique or to a unique enough extent that they feel cohesively distinct. That takes mechanics, systems, events, triggers, etc., enough to allow for those things.

But here in XIV, the toolkits are the least of the problem: the fights themselves have too few, too regular, and too scripted events for which short-term tasks (efficiency breakpoints, including... survival) to interestingly intervene in or to vary the feel of all our long-term tasks (the encounter's condition for completion, in our case always just reducing enemy HP to 0).

This has a huge impact even when comparing how fights feel between two non-trinity games. The one that has more distinct and impactful tasks punctuating or altering the general rhythm of combat tends to, if all else is nearly equal, feel far more compelling.

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Tanking and Healing felt compelling to me in previous expansions but I've been told I was 'doing it wrong'(Tank Stance, using GCDs to heal, what was I thinking).

And this is where we differ. While yes, the fights are too few regular and scripted; but any changes will be rebelled at by the community because "We aren't doing damage". It's never "We want more interesting fights" or "We want new ways to contribute" it's "More damage". And there's no turning that boat around.

Ranged gets more support buffs. They're either deemed "Not worth it, damage amp please" by the community or so bloody "required" that people complain about having to use them. Look at the discussion around NIN's trick attack, or since this is about ranged, Old MCH's Hypercharge(Back when it was a damage amp for the party) or Bard's Crit amp. Both were basically auto include because of the damage amps(And the refresh for MCH and BRD; more damage for the BLM/SMN). A skill is either not worth or a meta defining pickup it seems, there's no room for an in between. Even if SE changes the fights up, the most dominate 'solution' is going to be found, copied, and then we're back to speed running the fights. The short term tasks are always going to be "How to deal the most amount of damage as possible" from the community, regardless of what mechanics the fight may or may not have. Progression might look like "Live as long as possible to see everything" but that's going to just loop back to maxing out damage.

There's no level of "Contribution" that will be accepted that isn't "Kills enemy faster". Now we can blame SE for making the fights the way they are that lead to this but I'm a firm believe that hole is dug way too deep for SE to try rerouting/filling in without a massive rebellion by the player base. I don't believe that line of thinking will change so regardless of what SE actually does do, the community will come back with "We aren't doing enough damage, change X".

So just lean into the "Damage only" line of thinking and make everything damage focused.

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Originally Posted by Allooutrick

I would love for square to release an April fool's patch that completely sends the balance sideways and just leave it that way for a week. Not only will they be able to gain insight into the playerbase and how the game can be played, they might find some interesting new ideas. Not to mention the people who follow and add to the meta might have a field day with it.

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they just need to stop balancing the game around the f***in raiders. raiders are like a parasite in these games (and this is coming from a former raider) they kill a game and all the fun there has to be had in a game in the name of their precious progression and data. class diversity dies when developers listen to the raid community on how to balance a game.

look at the way this game is going.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

So just lean into the "Damage only" line of thinking and make everything damage focused.

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So, your solution is to hasten exactly what you're treating as the worst outcome.

It's about as... ingenious(?) as throwing yourself off a cliff before someone else can toss you, except without any metagame advantage.