Seeds of 7.0 and on?

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Are you talking about the cave paintings we briefly gloss over with Y'shtola in the hideout of the Children of the Everlasting Dark? or the paintings in the Qitana ravel before the 2nd boss? (unless those dont exist and Im just conflating the caves with bardaam's mettle.)

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The ones we gloss over with Yshtola, there were 3 paintings. The other cave paintings with Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been discussed a lot.

As far as not "attacking the poster" My point was that there was no agreement prior so trying to argue about it again OVER and OVER isn't going to change that due to cultural values and such - there was pages of it in prior posts. It's problematic writing because of that. So if you're going to take it as a personal attack for not "Getting it" then the blame solely lies on yourself. It was a point I didn't want to repeat because it just adds into it. But yet here I have to state it again. :/

There's plenty of other arguments to use until there's more of expansion of solidifying said writing.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

There was already a multi page debate about the Sundering/Murdering difference and unfortunately, because of people's mindsets there's no definite conclusion that what happened wasn't as bad even if technically not the same thing.

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Thanks for the heads up. :)
last time it was time travel over dimensional travel.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

As a rebuttal, the phrase 'nearly half' I, and a lot of people I know, use generally to say "it's not exactly half, but its close enough to half that you can use 50% for an approximate amount to calculate stuff with, and if anyone disagrees they're thinking too much into it". Not to say that it is 100% the meaning many others may intend when they use the phrase, but it's what I have experienced generally speaking.

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As a rebuttal it's pretty clunky :)
Phrases are cultural. So differences in the use of a phase and meaning of a phrase will be found in different places of the world as well and different social groups.

example: Some people will say nearly half is 51% too

So the spirit of the phases meaning will be different to different people. Phases have a literal meaning in the words used too: Half, is 1/2 or 50%, and nearly, being very close to or almost.

Considering it moved to math in % then the literal meaning becomes the issue. Math is very literal.

This all arose from me understating the amount in my point to its detriment. However even with that disadvantage the spirit of the point still stands. Probably even stand stronger as a result of the under embellishment.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

As an extra note regarding the power levels of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, it was stated by one of the lore team (either Koji or Oda I don't remember) that Zodiark was indeed the more powerful one of the 2 before the Sundering.

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That's good point for any saying otherwise. I'm not. I was pointing out the huge swing in the scales between the two tipped to Zoidark.

If that is the power needed for a will of the star then was speculating answers why Hydaelyn was so little.

Zoidark's creation energy wasn't all in bring a will to the star.
◾hailing the calamity may have taken energy. However Zoidark's concept was to do that.
◾will to the star wasn't the entire concept, sighting excessive build in destructive power was to deter, defend, reprise external threats to the planet.

Hydaelyn being an amendment to Zoidark's will of the star fits too.
why have to competing wills of the same star?

When we first meet Hydealyn
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...0baa12907b.jpg
Hydealyn's greeting state they are "all made one"

lol still have a full page to respond to >_< no time at the moment will post later or edit

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Originally Posted by fay2

Phrases are cultural. So differences in the use of a phase and meaning of a phrase will be found in different places of the world as well and different social groups.

example: Some people will say nearly half is 51% too

So the spirit of the phases meaning will be different to different people. Phases have a literal meaning in the words used too: Half, is 1/2 or 50%, and nearly, being very close to or almost.

Considering it moved to math in % then the literal meaning becomes the issue. Math is very literal.

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Yes it is just fine for you to claim that "nearly half" = 1/3 and "another half" = 1/3.

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Originally Posted by fay2

Yeah it seems liking to me that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are one in the same or some fashion like that. I mean it took 1/3 of the Amaurotians to make Zodiark another 1/3 to return life to the planet.

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I am not sure I will be able to take anything you write seriously after this...

A brief aside to the red flame in the dungeon, that was likely done for dramatic effect to enhance the world was on fire comments made and not some outside threat.

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Originally Posted by fay2

As a rebuttal it's pretty clunky :)
Phrases are cultural. So differences in the use of a phase and meaning of a phrase will be found in different places of the world as well and different social groups.

example: Some people will say nearly half is 51% too

So the spirit of the phases meaning will be different to different people. Phases have a literal meaning in the words used too: Half, is 1/2 or 50%, and nearly, being very close to or almost.

Considering it moved to math in % then the literal meaning becomes the issue. Math is very literal.

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True, phrases are cultural, with different meanings in different places. But 'nearly' in of itself means the term described is comparable to the term 'nearly' is used with. In math, if it is said that 'x is nearly equal to y' then 'y' can be used as a valid substitution in any calculations involving 'x' as long as we remember that it is an approximation. In this case 'x' s the true amount of souls sacrificed for Zodiark, while 'y' is 50% of the survivors, and as such using 50% is a valid approximation.

And yes, 51% is close enough to 50% that using 50% would be a valid approximation in that case too.

Going Left to right in the cave:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18211925_1.png


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18211938_1.png

The last one is obviously the 1st WoL party

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18212017_1.png

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The ones we gloss over with Yshtola, there were 3 paintings. The other cave paintings with Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been discussed a lot.

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These are just paintings of important scenes from the history of the first and the last one was done about Ardbert and his group thanks to their acts and later destroyed because of them causing the flood.

You wrote your post about an argument that mostly has no part in this discussion after someone wrote that sundering is not killing. And as far as we know this is true. Emet shows this with Ryne where the other Ryne is just an identical clone and people have to survive that otherwise there would be no life today. So its not murdering at all. You may want to argue that its as bad but just because there was no agreement in the other thread does not mean that people should stop posting their view on this in other threads.

And again I am not sure why you posted it at all, then have me making points and arguments against it and then ignoring them completely.

one of the reasons it seems liking to me that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are one in the same or some fashion like that is

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...3843df494b.jpg
Hydaelyn

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...138676f572.jpg
Zoidark

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Originally Posted by Alleo

that makes him not death

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I don't think you can say that Zoidark may well have been Death, the Amarotines concept of a Grim reaper.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

My whole answer to you was just because you said that the first sacrifice

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Up in till this post I have never said sacrifice in this thread.

Saying it was just a sacrifice, undermines the ultimate act of volition in them giving themselves to save the star and then returning life to the star and lastly creating Hydealyn.
Then in turn undermines Emet's grief he burdens and motivation over returning those that selflessly acted to save the star.

To easily to read sacrifice as being that they rounded up a portion of the populous that wouldn't mater (like all middle management and telephone sanitisers) and killed them with out getting their consent.
It seems a few people believe that this is what happened based on posts there is no evidence of this and a lot against it.

The 1st moral question was, offering up a portion of the nurtured new life on the star to Zoidark to return the souls of those that so holly and selflessly gave of themselves. That offered live force wasn't going to get a say in it.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also it may be true that they are not there or it could simply be that Zodiark somehow sent them in the rift to save them when he noticed that he was losing.

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Mind clarifying which rift you mean?
Cant be the rift between worlds as it didn't exist till after the sundering because the were no other worlds for it to be between.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

There are many possiblities here.

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Yes. the 3 unbroken may have been put in a pocket of time like the WoL's party in Answers ARR opening movie, or off the planet far enough away to avoid the AoE all together. What ever happen they weren't hit by the sundering.

It should be noted Hydaelyn hasn't since sundered them since sundering Zoidark.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We also know that the sound came from the earth itself, it did not start from the sky.

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Yes, a sound did come from the earth. Why? What caused it?

That was the pebble that started the ripples, so who threw it?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

So this violett cloud could simply be created by the fears of a bunch of ancient ones that even the sky would turn against them.

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Yes, it could be.

time up again more later

Well Hydealyn is probably also not summoned now and seemingly exist somewhere else than us so imo she cant sunder anymore. (Which is why she probably also not put any of us in danger either, since normally primals need aether to keep existing)

Well we still dont know how the complete universe works. The sundering seemingly only happened with our planet, because Middy still is immortal and only came to the source when Hydealyn already was in charge. So maybe there is some kind of dimension between the universe which could have hidden them. Was it ever for example stated since when the place where the Ascians without bodies flee to existed? If not then maybe that was were they landed and be protected and its also why they choose to go back there. (But pure speculation on my part)

About your pictures: Well Hydaelyn and Zodiark also look the same on the cave paintings (either because the ones drawing it wanted them to look the same or those summoning her are a bit lazy). It is interesting that they look much more different here than in the drawings, so I wonder if that is the look of them being inactive?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And again I am not sure why you posted it at all, then have me making points and arguments against it and then ignoring them completely.

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Please go back and refer to my previous posts, that it was stated that it wasn't a consensus morality if one was worse than the other, and repeating "but in my opinion" doesn't solidify the argument one way or another.

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Originally Posted by fay2

To easily to read sacrifice as being that they rounded up a portion of the populous that wouldn't mater (like all middle management and telephone sanitisers) and killed them with out getting their consent.
It seems a few people believe that this is what happened based on posts there is no evidence of this and a lot against it.

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I'm not sure where you drew this conclusion? From where I've been reading (and discussing keep in mind this isn't the lore forum but linkshells, forum posts talking with others in game...) most agree the first 2 were voluntary, and it was the third where the problem occurred? Can you clarify? (nvm I guess you're only assuming the OP - but equated a few with ONE person)