Removing unnecessary buttons (SCH)

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Originally Posted by Dynia

and who ever said tank should have better dmg then healer ? WHM should have even bigger damage then now cause have nothing more then healing in terms in utility, your utility as SCH is OP shields and you still want more damage ?! you are too greedy and don't even know to how balance should works

dude if you not playing healer for healing and for keep your party alive as main priority and want to dps more then healing you don't deserve to play healer, im happy that SE made this changes that will keep some ppls with your mentality away from healing class

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Seriously, are you a troll?

A) As was said above, SCH has far weaker heals than WHM (I've played both and WHM can recover people's HP so much faster). Our shields aren't our utility. They're the main component of our healing kit.

B) As was also said above, most SCHs want more complex dps, not more effective dps. I'm happy for WHMs to continue to have the biggest numbers. I just want more than 4 dps buttons across my entire kit

C) We don't deserve to play healers... okay. Wow.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Seriously, are you a troll?

A) As was said above, SCH has far weaker heals than WHM (I've played both and WHM can recover people's HP so much faster). Our shields aren't our utility. They're the main component of our healing kit.

B) As was also said above, most SCHs want more complex dps, not more effective dps. I'm happy for WHMs to continue to have the biggest numbers. I just want more than 4 dps buttons across my entire kit

C) We don't deserve to play healers... okay. Wow.

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yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer ;)
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

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Originally Posted by Dynia

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

again this complex dps, why you need more direct hit skills than broil ? its just different animation on what mob get by, more keys for different animations is not needed on healer
you want more dot skills ? more dots = bigger dps so stop lying
why you want more than 1 aoe ? again different animation what mob will be hitted by ...
want more than 4 dps buttons ? ---> dps class this way you are healer ;)
this dps mania on healers gets absurd

also : I dpsing while my party hp is full

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More dots does not necessarily equal more dps. Two dots of potency 20 is less dps than one dot of potency 40, due to losing two gcds for it. We're not asking for two dots with the same potency as the dot we have now.

Also, when we say we want more dps buttons, that doesn't mean another button that does the same thing except with a different cost/potency. There can be dps buttons that do other things. I consider Presence of Mind to be a dps button, because (assuming that healing is going well enough that you don't need to use it for healing. Obviously healing gets priority) you can use it to get more dps in. Bane was a dps button and it did something different to all our other buttons (spreading dots provided a tool to get more use out of dots on an enemy that was about to die, for instance). Personally, I'm not looking for a rotation like, say, the one on dancer. I don't want more than one button that essentially does the same thing, but which have to be pressed in a particular order (except that I would like more DoTs, because keeping an eye on the duration of both was an element of complexity that I miss). I want more flexibility in my dps kit, not more power. I also want my job to require more decision making of me. Deciding to use presence of mind for DPS means it isn't available for healing. Deciding to use aetherflow stacks for energy drain means that you won't have that stack for an emergency lustrate. Those kinds of dps skills made the job more interesting to me, and pushed the skill ceiling higher.

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

As for me calling you a troll, I didn't wonder that because you disagree with me. I suspected that because a) you didn't seem to have read the things other SCH advocates have said (or perhaps you just misunderstood what was meant), which makes it seem like you're not arguing in good faith and b) calling your opponent a liar reduces the discussion to a name slinging fight, rather than a real debate. I am also guilty of this, so I apologize for that.

P.S. The reason I don't play a DPS instead is because I love the reactivity that is required to play a healer. Watching the health bars and making sure everyone stays up is my favorite part of the role. That doesn't mean I can't also enjoy the other parts of my role. The reason I'm complaining exclusively about the dps is that the healing still feels good.

Now back to op

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Originally Posted by Baelas

to free up space on our already packed hotkey bars.

"Summon Seraph"/"Consolation" pair. There are no circumstances where you could cast Consolation without also summoning Seraph, so there would be no loss if the first press of a new merged button summoned it, and the two subsequent presses used Consolation. No loss, all gain!

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I agree, the button can be like AST draw/play button in 4.0
Others is a no no

"Lucid dream" it have some situation.

"Repose" just ignore it if u dun want it, its not integral part of SCH

"Ruin Il" no... Pls no, i still like this skill since its instant cast, i can dps while running around

"Emergency Tactics" its a good idea but no, if its implement ed they will nerf us more... So... Shh...

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Genuine question: why do you think it would be a bad thing for healers to have better dps? People who didn't want to use it could just ignore it, while people who did want to use it would be happy. Is it just because you're worried that WHM will become the lesser healer again? (It was in a sorry state before. This is the first xpac I've considered maining it in). If that is your main concern, can we premise any following discussion on the assumption that whatever changes are made, WHM should still have the best dps numbers of any healer, by a decent margin? I'm more than happy for them to keep that, and if we agree on that, perhaps we can better discuss what form the dps should take.

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cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

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Originally Posted by Dynia

cause this game using Holy Trinity, healer should heal and buff do not much damage, tank should eat damage deal as much damage as healer and dps should do as much pain as possible with little defences and selfheals
im old school type mmorpg player maybe that why, im sitting longer in mmos then some kids going to school :P

ofc there are mmos with hybrids but not here

sometimes when im bored im playing guild wars 2 or ESO where any class can do any job (healing,support tank dps etc)

EDIT: i played SCH in SB and I would not call it complex dps combo to be honest maybe cause I played harder dps classes in the past
EDIT: I don't worry about WHM :] I like this class but i can play anything tank, healer (any healer class) or dps but I love healers the most :P classes in this game is already too easy to master imho

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Yeah, SCH dps wasn't hard, but it was harder, and more interesting, than it is now. If they wanted to make it better than it was before, I'd have no complaints. And to be clear, when I say I would like things to be harder, I mean I'd like a higher skill ceiling.

Another genuine question: why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure? I know there are a lot of people who think it is, so I'd like to understand why.

The way I see it, there is only so much you can improve your healing: when no one is dying, you just can't do that job any better. I advocate for dps complexity because it means that there's always some way to do your job better (when you've got the healing down, and only then, you can work on optimising dps). I'd be equally happy with some sort of offensive buffing system, so long as it was decently complex and had short enough cooldowns that you could focus on maintaining it whenever there was no healing required. I'd be happy with them increasing the amount of damage incoming, so we had less reason to use our dps kits, but I think we still need to account for the fact that someone could master that harder content, and they should have something to continue to work towards at that point. Ergo the dps (or buffing system) should be there, even if most players will never use it (in group content, anyway. I imagine most would use dps in quests and whatnot).

If you have the time, I'd very much appreciate it if you told me why you think maintaining the purity of the trinity is important, how you think it stacks up against concerns like mine, and whether you can think of any solutions that would resolve my concerns while maintaining what you think is important.

Note: being able to optimise dps doesn't mean the dps has to be very powerful. Just complex enough that it's something you can improve at, and have at least a marginal benefit to your group.

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Originally Posted by Hatstand

Another genuine question: why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure? I know there are a lot of people who think it is, so I'd like to understand why.

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maybe cause im old and I respect tradition :P ?? nah its not it this time :D

now image class with:
- plate armor, def stats like paladin
- healing power and skills like WHM
- dps like paladin or WHM what ever here (I can already solo HUNT bosses on map as WHM, its take me like 1 hour to solo them but its possible)

with this class you can selftank and selfheal anything in the game and with enough time you could solo ANY raid

to answer that question that class would be OP, TOO OP / even hybrids with 2 elements are too strong, healer with too big dps is OP too imho (image that class on pvp high healing power and high dps)

what why Holy Trinity exist you are weak in something and strong in something, you can't eat cake and have cake,

that why is it so important that the holy trinity be pure, if you as healer do too much dmg, you away job from your fellow dps budy, its simple to KEEP class BALANCE

I rly wish they make harder dungeons or dungeons hard mode with harder mobs that give more exp and rewards or just M+ from wow :P


EDIT: and one more thing, would you be happy as black mage if your party member healer do same damage as you in raid ? (for example you and he do 10k dmg in the end to raid boss)
(yes yes yes, I know this game have DPS check on a lot of bosses ^^)

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Originally Posted by Dynia

another SCH cry about his OP class was nerfed, what a suprise ...
want more dps ?? ------> summoner class this way and you get back are your missing skills

you are healer want dps go play dps simple as breathe

you can't have op healing and op dmg any more sry

edit : and yes I played SCH too in sb and I know it was too much as class

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Oh boy here we go with another “you’re a healer, not a DPS” thing again.

Also what was too much? The amount of skills? I’d personally disagree on that.

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Originally Posted by Dynia

yes, I have different opinion than yours, im troll

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It's not because your opinion is different; it's because you're clearly ignoring how this game works. What's next: take away dps from tanks? 6.0 "all tank abilities now result in threat management only. If you wanted to dps you should play a dps job". smh