The Warrior of Light is not tempered by Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

The Ananta were completely without free will, they were just able to plan and execute a scheme at their primal's behest. But that's not even the real issue.

The defining trait of tempering isn't even loss of free will in a generalized sense; it's that you are forced to worship and obey the primal.

Hydaelyn told Ajora to betray her and unleash a calamitous monster she went to great pains to seal away? No.

Ifrit's guys were fawning and craven in their adoration but that doesn't mean he burned away their brains. We've seen the tempered execute schemes and sabotage in the past. That's why the Alliance executes the Tempered. They're not just zombie-like thralls you can spot at a hundred yalms. They're actually dangerous.

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I agree the Amal'jaa quests showed that Ifrit's tempered are perfectly capable of going undercover within non-tempered societies to reek havoc. I'm pretty sure that one of the brotherhood of Ash claims that Little Ala Mhigo was filled with tempered spies.

I mean I get and agree it would be annoying/bad writing that Hydaelyn was the bad guy all along - but this is a common trope for the franchise. I mean things like FF15 just left a bad taste in my mouth due to it. So can't say it hasn't happened before.

That said I think the angle of tempering is interesting because we're looking at base level idea of tempering. The trailer said these are really old primals. I still think their existence was out of people simply trying to explain the world and the cosmos. We need only look at religion. You can look at how the Bible says God gave mankind free will. Hydaelyn as a primal would do the same. I mean you want something that appeals to and subscribes to your concept of free will. Ascians simply see themselves as a necessity so they get behind their thoughtform primal. It cannot temper us unless we are believed to have actual free will. That even means at the risk of rejecting her.

She is our idea of what a "good god" should be even if she's a primal.

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Originally Posted by Leaf_Dragoon

I agree the Amal'jaa quests showed that Ifrit's tempered are perfectly capable of going undercover within non-tempered societies to reek havoc. I'm pretty sure that one of the brotherhood of Ash claims that Little Ala Mhigo was filled with tempered spies.

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Those same quests show a woman driven entirely insane by tempering (Loonh Gah's mother). She believes a rock is her daughter, and she plans to give that rock-daughter to Ifrit. The Amalja'a leader says it happens, Ifrit's fires are too strong and it destroys their minds.

I think of tempering like "indoctrination" in the Mass Effect series. The Reapers in Mass Effect can hack biological minds and make them servants, but there's a deterioration effect. Once indoctrination takes hold (and it is also a kind one-way mind-hack from which the victim cannot be cured) the victim becomes increasingly loyal and unquestioning, but also simpler in their thinking and less subtle. The final stage is mindless zombie.

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

Unsurprisingly, there was a subset of fans who were convinced that the protagonist of the Mass Effect was "indoctrinated," and the writers never went that direction. It wasn't a direction for competent writers to go - a cheap twist M. Night Shyamalan twist that bad writers use to make themselves seem deeper and more nuanced than they are. I have faith that Banri Oda is a better writer than that as well.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

Those same quests show a woman driven entirely insane by tempering (Loonh Gah's mother). She believes a rock is her daughter, and she plans to give that rock-daughter to Ifrit. The Amalja'a leader says it happens, Ifrit's fires are too strong and it destroys their minds.

I think of tempering like "indoctrination" in the Mass Effect series. The Reapers in Mass Effect can hack biological minds and make them servants, but there's a deterioration effect. Once indoctrination takes hold (and it is also a kind one-way mind-hack from which the victim cannot be cured) the victim becomes increasingly loyal and unquestioning, but also simpler in their thinking and less subtle. The final stage is mindless zombie.

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

Unsurprisingly, there was a subset of fans who were convinced that the protagonist of the Mass Effect was "indoctrinated," and the writers never went that direction. It wasn't a direction for competent writers to go - a cheap twist M. Night Shyamalan twist that bad writers use to make themselves seem deeper and more nuanced than they are. I have faith that Banri Oda is a better writer than that as well.

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I think some people just cling to the indoctrination theory because the original endings were a letdown and they wanted for SOMETHING more potentially interesting to be going on, but that's just my guess.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

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Tempering also varies a lot with the primal that is doing the tempering. We never see people change shape with Ifirit's tempering, no matter how broken their minds are. Rahmu only tempers people who ask him to temper them. Leviathan's tempered have no suitability... etc.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I mean I get and agree it would be annoying/bad writing that Hydaelyn was the bad guy all along - but this is a common trope for the franchise. I mean things like FF15 just left a bad taste in my mouth due to it. So can't say it hasn't happened before.

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It is a common trope but I would like to think better of XIV's writers than to throw it out there completely out of nowhere, considering we have seen nothing indicating Hydaelyn is anything less than good.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

Those same quests show a woman driven entirely insane by tempering (Loonh Gah's mother). She believes a rock is her daughter, and she plans to give that rock-daughter to Ifrit. The Amalja'a leader says it happens, Ifrit's fires are too strong and it destroys their minds.

[...]

Basic tempering is instantaneous, but there seem to be degrees, and a progression. People go crazy (or crazier). People start to change shape (like Captain Madison is Sastasha Hard). They begin to alter. Tempered Flames can infiltrate things, but by the same token, recently Drowned Limsans announce their loyalty to Leviathan the second you rescue them in Beast Tribe quests, basically ensuring their deaths. Someone with independent reasoning would have laid low, and returned to infiltrate so as to better serve their new god.

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I do think that it was stated in the instance of Loonh Gah’s mother that she was overexposed to Ifrit’s Fire, for what it’s worth. Not the best metaphor but I kind of rationalize it like if you overcook food by leaving it in too long? Even if you don’t raise the temperature at a certain point you’ll still end up with charcoal. Loonh Gah’s Mom was just extra crispy.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

It is a common trope but I would like to think better of XIV's writers than to throw it out there completely out of nowhere, considering we have seen nothing indicating Hydaelyn is anything less than good.

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That's actually false. There's been more than a few hints to suggest that something isn't quite right about Hydaelyn. It just so happens that there's a lot of bias towards Hydaelyn around these parts and certain posters are parroted as truth even when what they are proposing are simply theories or rewording what others have already stated in the past.

Regardless, in less than a fortnight we will receive some of the answers that we are seeking.

To an echo an earlier statement, the only certainty at this point is that things could go either way when accounting for the story's natural progression and twists.

She needn't even be "evil" - I don't really consider Zodiark or the Ascians to be such; it's more that their goals (particularly the latter's since we've never heard from Zodiark) and ours conflict. By the looks of it, they consider the existence of anything that came to be after Hydaelyn banished Zodiark to be illegitimate, and she is no different to any other latecomer Primal to them. Assuming that there isn't anything more to their motives, that is.

However, she may be possessed of the same sense of conviction many Primals have about them, and if it is the case that the Rejoining must go ahead (even if not by the Ascian methods) in order to stabilise the world and prevent further floods, her hatred of Zodiark (and inability to grasp that they're both Primals) may cause her to get in the way. Both are Primals so both should be, in essence, entities which can be summoned again, provided that doing so would not destabilise the planet itself.

Quite frankly, I'd be happy if they go down this route and I don't particularly care if she ends up not being "good", as long as they make it interesting. I don't need cartoonishly good or bad characters for the story to be of interest.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I don't need cartoonishly good or bad characters for the story to be of interest.

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I'm of the same mind. I also don't believe that Hydaelyn and Zodiark operate by the same standards of morality as mortals do. It doesn't make them 'good' or 'evil'. They simple are as they are.

Which, incidentally, is very much in line with what we've seen of Primals. Some are all about destruction but others are all about protecting their charges, territory and generally just seeking to bring about a better world. Given the unfortunate draining of aether and the troublesome stripping away of free will through Tempering, however, we put a stop to them.

Yet such things are not so easily pegged as 'good' or 'evil'. Very few things in this setting actually are. A viewpoint which the game has repeatedly highlighted through the narrative story arcs of many characters and factions.

I predict more of the same as of Shadowbringers.