The calamities+hydaelyn needing to heal the wound is verrry reiminiscent of "The Calamity from the Skies" and the Northern Crater in FF7. Jenova fell to the planet in Meteor, causing a huge scar on the planet. The planet recruited a huge amount of energy via the lifestream to heal the damage, which Sephiroth wanted to repeat, except he would be in the epicenter to absorb all the energy and be reborn as a god. In FFXIV's case, calamities are occuring every couple hundred years and Hydaleyn eats a shard to rebalance the source's aether.
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12-05-2018, 02:52 AMJonnycbad
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12-05-2018, 02:56 AMJonnycbadQuote:
Originally Posted by ObsidianFire
It's a common trope in JRPGS to make the holy/mainstream religious faction seemingly benevolent but then flip the switch later on and reveal either the holy faction is deeply corrupt and actually evil, or that there is no good or evil despite what the holy faction made people believe, and there's only humanity and shades of grey of morality. Hellsing, Castlevania, Xenogears, Xenosaga, Final Fantasy X, FFXIV Final Fantasy XIII, Heavensward, etc...
In this case, either Hydaelyn is corrupt or both the gods are bad for the planet. In fact FFXIV might end with us destroying both of the gods because all that matters is the crystal and aether/lifestream. We don't need a personified consciousness, or God, to regulate mortal affairs. So similarly to FFXI, I think we will fight both gods and either become a god ourselves, or destroy them both and let life do its own thing naturally and harmoniously. -
12-05-2018, 03:20 AMObsidianFireTrust me, I know how that kind of plot works. To the point that it's so predictable that it's boring. I'd love to see a JRPG do something different with the "benevolent deity/religion" trope other then it turning out to be evil all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
As it is, in the case of FFXIII, we find out the government is lying after less then five minutes of playing the game. In Heavensward, we find out the Archbishop has been talking with the Ascians the first time we meet him and we know something weird is going on with the Heavensward itself even earlier. But that is how foreshadowing works. It's giving the player information so that when the "big reveal" comes, the player can then go "oh, so that's what all those inconsistencies were about".
If Hydaelyn or Zodiark is destroyed, it's the end of life as we know it. Destroying them has always been presented as that. In fact, destroying how life currently works is one of the goals of the Ascians. The world of FFXIV is not a world where destroying the current pantheon is something that can be done to put history back into the hands of humanity. Although, I'm sure the Ascians would love the situation to be presented as such.Quote:
In this case, either Hydaelyn is corrupt or both the gods are bad for the planet. In fact FFXIV might end with us destroying both of the gods because all that matters is the crystal and aether/lifestream. We don't need a personified consciousness, or God, to regulate mortal affairs. So similarly to FFXI, I think we will fight both gods and either become a god ourselves, or destroy them both and let life do its own thing naturally and harmoniously.
The thing is, I've yet to find an example in-game of the foreshadowing required for Hydaelyn to be lying to us. The Ascians are more then happy to take all the credit for her not being powerful enough to better fix the situation. When she can fix a situation, she's fixed it to the best of her ability and often at great cost to herself. The best evidence I can find that might indicate Hydaelyn is lying is that she hasn't told us everything yet. However, that applies to Zodiark and Elidibus and the rest of the Ascians as well. And even a lot of the other mundane characters.
The only thing that seems to indicate Hydaelyn could be lying is the common "benevolent deity was evil all along" trope in JRPGs. Only, none of the groundwork has been laid for that. And it's predictable and boring. Neither of which the FFXIV dev team likes to do. I could easily see them always having Hydaelyn being the "benevolent deity" just so that the plot isn't predictable. -
12-05-2018, 04:44 AMJonnycbad
[QUOTE]If Hydaelyn or Zodiark is destroyed, it's the end of life as we know it. Destroying them has always been presented as that. In fact, destroying how life currently works is one of the goals of the Ascians. The world of FFXIV is not a world where destroying the current pantheon is something that can be done to put history back into the hands of humanity. Although, I'm sure the Ascians would love the situation to be presented as such.[quote]
We don't know that. We know all planets with life/aether have their own lifestream and likely mothercrystal but we don't know if all planets with life have their own guardian dieties of light/dark. For all we know Zodiark/Hydaelyn could be unnecessary. In fact, what if they're just the "first" primals. Primals are born out of aether and prayers, perhaps they were born out of the prayers of the collective unconscious of the lifestream? The lifrstream is the collection of all aether/souls of a planet, the gods of Hydaelyn and Zodiark might be unnecessary to the aether. We don't know if the Dragonstar has their own Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict, or Omega's homeworld. Do all worlds with life have twin gods that always fight? Or do some worlds simply just have aether/lifestreams that exist passively without any "gods" fighting over it? I'm of the mind that this may end like Xenosaga, where they sealed away Wilhelm (Lucifer) and Abel and stopped the whole universe from rebooting every several millenia and allowed mortals to have free-will without beings from higher dimensions interferring. We may end up destroying both the gods and coming to the realization that they were both superfluous to life. It seems to be a theme in FFXIV, that mortals pray for deliverance from strife through a god, but that the god is just false hope and is something to place your hope into, rather than putting hope into yourself and your friends to make your situation better. The theme of relying on supernatural to deliver you, when in reality, the world is a harsh place. IDK, I'm probably ranting now, but I can't see a situation where it ends with light beating dark or both existing and exchanging victories forever.
Hell, in XI, the god of darkness and goddess of light preserve the universe forever by battling, which creates "winds of time" which "blow" the void away from the planet, but once they stop battling, and the winds of time halt, the void creeps in to consume the planet. Only when both light and dark are balanced and continue battling, with sometimes light winning, sometimes losing, can balance and harmony exist and life continue. If either side wins, there's a flood, and if both sides stop fighting/or annihilated, same fate. -
12-05-2018, 05:22 AMObsidianFire
Your argument is based on saying all the lore we know about Zodiark and Hydaelyn is false. We have seen nothing in-game that suggests that. We have seen plenty of things happen that suggests no one is lying about Zodiark and Hydaelyn, at least, no one who we can trust not to lie to us. Incomplete knowledge is never the same thing as false knowledge.
The entire 3.3-3.4 story that focuses on the Warriors of Darkness relies on what Urianger knows about Hydaelyn and the cosmology of FFXIV being correct. And on Elidibus not presenting the Warriors of Darkness with all the options that they actually have. As it turns out, Urianger knows exactly what he is talking about and his understanding of what Hydaelyn values (the life of everyone on the 1st Shard) is spot on. Elidibus is either unaware that the Warriors of Darkness could talk to Hydaelyn or he's more interested in bringing about another Calamity rather then really helping them out. Everything in that arc reinforces what we already knew about Hydaelyn, it doesn't contradict it.
As a general rule, it's impossible to have good lore discussions if we assume what we are told is false. If we assume that, then no meaningful discussion can take place. It also isn't good to automatically assume that FFXIV will follow all the tropes of the typical JRPG. Or the cosmologies of other Final Fantasy games for that matter. While FFXIV does use a lot of those tropes, it very often puts a twist on them so that we as players can't predict where the story will go next.
Koji in that interview is not saying that what we have been told in the game is false per say. He is saying it is incomplete. And that he most likely doesn't want to spoil what is coming next. -
12-05-2018, 05:52 AMLineageRazorJust so we're clear, I'm not actually of the opinion that Hydaelyn is actually engaged in wrongdoing, or that this big twist is coming. All I did was discount the claim that the interview had done anything to dispel the theory. On the contrary, it was EXTREMELY neutral, and left room for all kinds of interpretations (including the "planet-eating Hydaelyn" scenario).Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsidianFire
I have to say, though, it's a stretch to say that there's no foreshadowing. Even if it comes from an unreliable source (like Elidibus), foreshadowing is foreshadowing. The door is there, even if the plot never walks through it. It would hardly be the first time in fiction that the bad guys (while still being bad guys!) warn the good guys that their superiors are not kosher, only to smugly tell the heroes "I told you so!" later when they turn out to be correct. When that happens, no one considers it to be out-of-the-blue with no foreshadowing.
The "planet eater" scenario doesn't necessarily mean Hy is bad, either - just desperate. The Ascians are not leaving her a path where she can save everyone, and so she's saving as many as she can. The choice lies between ending a world full of lives, or allowing ALL the worlds full of lives to end, and she bitterly sacrifices the few for the many. If anything, that paints a more tragically heroic picture of her than a scenario where there's a clean way out, and the fact that she's not forthcoming about it could be for several reasons. Shame, for example. Or fear that her allies would turn against her if they knew. Or even an inhuman perspective; e.g., she simply doesn't understand why that might be important to us and so doesn't bother to bring it up - the important thing is to stop the Ascians so she doesn't HAVE to eat planets, and so she focuses on that! -
12-05-2018, 07:18 AMSannaR
As I see it Hydaelyn and Zodiark co-existed just fine until Zodiark became greedy for whatever reason and to protect herself from what became a harmful relationship she shoved him as far as she could. Meanwhile parts of her broke off and formed mirrored worlds which she was fine with as they kept him from doing her harm. Also I think the mother crystal is Hydaelyn as a lot of the time we talk to her it's in the background. Just like the one time we've ever seen what could be assumed to be Zodiark is a huge black/purpleish crystal. To me she heals herself the only way she is either able to or knows how to which is absorbing/eating a shard while also probably loathe to do so as it brings Zodiark closer to her.
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12-05-2018, 08:46 AMFenral
The Lore book (page 14) says Hydaelyn isn't the mother crystal, but rather one of two Wills that existed within it before the (Hydaelyn-initiated) split. Whatever Her intentions, she ended up with a monopoly on the mothercrystal by banishing Zodiark, unless the crystal itself was also split/mirrored, in which case I suppose we'd have a mothercystal and a fathercrystal.
We don't really know enough on this, but IF the Ardor is only "necessary" in order to circumvent whatever defenses Hydaelyn has up, our third option might be convincing Hydaelyn to allow Zodiark to return to the mothercrystal. Obviously (well, for now) compressing all the dimensions back together is bad for all life involved, but if that's merely the Ascian's chosen means and not the inevitable end result of reunifying the mothercrystal... Maybe we have a shot?
All that said, I still have no idea what there even is to be greedy over when the sum of all existence is two equal-but-opposite beings. Greed is born of disparity, so when the whole of existence is parity itself, it should be fundamentally impossible to covet. Even if we assume She's not lying to us, there's still something missing from the story. -
12-05-2018, 09:33 AMAnonymooseQuote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
I'd still stress that we (mortals) have it in writing ahead of time that the removal of the distinction between Light and Darkness will not create a cosmic status quo whereby we cannot exist. Before the arrival of man, existence was allegedly defined by whimsical creation and destruction at the hands of capricious gods. What if that was - not the Twelve - but the natural state of Light and Dark, Genesis and Entropy - as one? What if we, living beings with continuity and contiguity, cannot exist in such an ephemeral and chaotic world? We didn't fight for the world we know and love - for millennia of the world of man, for all its flaws - to throw it all away for this. This is Final Fantasy! Anything that stands between man and control of his own destiny and we will smote its ruin upon mountainside with the power of friendship and /gpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
From a human perspective. Perhaps when a distinction was made between Light and Darkness, a division between forces of genesis (order, separation) and entropy (disorder, consolidation), it was merely the Dark's inherent nature to covet and consume. Hydaelyn and Zodiark might be, from an eastern cosmology point of view, the scorpion and the frog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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12-05-2018, 11:32 AMFenral
And then you quoted a typo I didn't catch just to throw me off guard. Clever bastard... (lol I kid)
So, we have it in writing that it is fine as long as the gods play nice? Well, that's exactly what I was saying, then... :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
That aside, sometimes you word stuff like you're getting ready to fight me because I'm some kind of avatar of nihilism or something trying to lead people down the wrong path. I swear I'm not an Ascian in disguise. Just trying to point out that, whatever the rules in place, our best outcome is probably to get mom and dad to stop fighting? Or at the very least, get them to take it outside?
I mean, I have also brought that up in the past. If Light and Dark are in balanced conflict for however long, what could suddenly tip the scales if both are simply acting according to their nature? (And don't you dare give me any of that Urobutcher "Darkness is just stronger than Light because lol heat death of the universe" bullcrap. Ahem. That wasn't at you, Moose.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose