BRD/MCH having their own piercing?

MCH yes, BRD no.

MCH’s support capabilities aren’t quite as strong as BRD’s right now, it’s a lot closer to DRG on that scale than BRD. I’m also of the mind that if all 3 piercing jobs can use it then what’s the point of any of them having it?

I’d say put 5% piercing damage on hot shot.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

MCH yes, BRD no.

MCH’s support capabilities aren’t quite as strong as BRD’s right now, it’s a lot closer to DRG on that scale than BRD. I’m also of the mind that if all 3 piercing jobs can use it then what’s the point of any of them having it?

I’d say put 10% piercing damage on hot shot.

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DRG has more utility and offers more rDPS contribution than a BRD does. Especially if you are running double physical ranged. Utility for DRG/BRD or DRG/MCH goes DRG > BRD > MCH. And in the case of DRG/BRD/MCH, DRG >>>>>> BRD > MCH.

And 10% piercing on Hot Shot?! 10% piercing on Hot Shot would just solidify DRG/BRD/MCH even further. Disembowel only gives 5%. Give MCH 10%, and both the DRG and BRD will cling to them even tighter than BRD/MCH cling to DRG right now. Say good-bye to any casters trying to worm their way into the meta (and to MNK trying to be meta for the first time in...well, ever).

Piercing needs to just be removed entirely from the game, and DRG’s potencies buffed to compensate for it. What’s the point of slashing when all DPS jobs that benefit from it can apply it (and WAR can as well)? Same for Blunt, who only benefits MNK, and MNK applies it themselves. All the resistance down debuffs are redundant.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

MCH yes, BRD no.

MCH’s support capabilities aren’t quite as strong as BRD’s right now, it’s a lot closer to DRG on that scale than BRD. I’m also of the mind that if all 3 piercing jobs can use it then what’s the point of any of them having it?

I’d say put 10% piercing damage on hot shot.

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You do this and MCH instantly becomes mandatory at the midcore level and beyond. Furthermore, DRG loses all relevance since Litany alone cannot push them ahead of Monk's personal DPS and Brotherhood. Casters, meanwhile, may as well just be deleted. We're taking a loss well beyond a 1,000 rDPS simply because someone chose to play Red Mage.

PLD/WAR/NIN/MNK/BRD/MCH is now a lock with only DRG having a chance of cracking through.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

DRG has more utility and offers more rDPS contribution than a BRD does. Especially if you are running double physical ranged. Utility for DRG/BRD or DRG/MCH goes DRG > BRD > MCH. And in the case of DRG/BRD/MCH, DRG >>>>>> BRD > MCH.

And 10% piercing on Hot Shot?! 10% piercing on Hot Shot would just solidify DRG/BRD/MCH even further. Disembowel only gives 5%. Give MCH 10%, and both the DRG and BRD will cling to them even tighter than BRD/MCH cling to DRG right now. Say good-bye to any casters trying to worm their way into the meta (and to MNK trying to be meta for the first time in...well, ever).

Piercing needs to just be removed entirely from the game, and DRG’s potencies buffed to compensate for it. What’s the point of slashing when all DPS jobs that benefit from it can apply it (and WAR can as well)? Same for Blunt, who only benefits MNK, and MNK applies it themselves. All the resistance down debuffs are redundant.

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I meant 5%, I don’t play DRG, I just figured it was a 10% buff like the slashing buff. I’ll change that.

As for support I’d say BRD is ahead of DRG. DRG has battle litany and dragon’s eye which are powerful yes but they’re also on fairly long cooldowns outside of those all it offers is the piercing buff. BRD on the other hand has basically constant 2% crit buff to the party and can put up foe requiem whenever it’s needed, while also having battle voice for direct hit buff on the same CD as litany and some defensive tools like troubadour, warden’s paean and nature’s minne. MCH on the other hand has hypercharge and dismantle and that’s it, sure you can give them the role skills but you’d have to give those to BRD as well.

When looking to the whole package yes, BRD has more, if you look to dps only, disembowel alone makes DRG above BRD with double ranged if I remember correctly.
That said removing piercing won't really change much, it will probably mean that triple melee becomes the norm, caster will still be a suboptimal choice, which is the real problem, the lack of magical buffs, until that gets resolved changing anything of the actual game just shifts wich physical dmg is more used

Dragon sight is less than 100 rdps, litany is around 200-300 . Disembowel is 300 per ranged dps. If you have 2 then it becomes 600 raid dps easily. thats about as much as bards entire kit alone

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I meant 5%, I don’t play DRG, I just figured it was a 10% buff like the slashing buff. I’ll change that.

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Disembowel used to be 10% back in Heavensward, but it was nerfed in what I believe was a hope to kill the double-ranged meta. That didn’t work, though. It’s still the preferred meta of choice.

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As for support I’d say BRD is ahead of DRG. DRG has battle litany and dragon’s eye which are powerful yes but they’re also on fairly long cooldowns outside of those all it offers is the piercing buff. BRD on the other hand has basically constant 2% crit buff to the party and can put up foe requiem whenever it’s needed, while also having battle voice for direct hit buff on the same CD as litany and some defensive tools like troubadour, warden’s paean and nature’s minne. MCH on the other hand has hypercharge and dismantle and that’s it, sure you can give them the role skills but you’d have to give those to BRD as well.

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BRD’s buffs will not outweigh DRG’s buffs if the DRG has double ranged, because they’ll get ~600 rDPS contribution from Disembowel for the BRD/MCH alone, and BRD’s individual tools will not touch ~600 rDPS. On average, BV offers 150~200 rDPS, with the Passive Crit ranging from 250~300; Foe’s changes depending on how often the BRD uses it, and I’ve seen as low as 150 to as high as 330. BRD’s individual utilities are only better than a DRG’s if the group is running triple-melee or there is a caster as the second ranged; Battle Voice actually doesn’t beat Litany if you look at rBuff contribution—only the Passive Crit buff beats it, and Foe’s if it is used optimally. When I speak of BRD’s contribution to a raid compared to DRG, I am speaking in terms of rBuffs (so this excludes Troubadour, Warden’s Paeon, and Nature’s Minne as they do not contribute to raid damage). I apologize if that was unclear.

MCH/BRD need less power, not more. If anything piercing should be removed, and drg should be compensated for it alone, and leave mch/brd alone. Between refresh, palisade, brd's crit buff troubador foe, and mch's dismantle and hyper charge, all while being part of the speed run meta comp for about 2 years now, they need nerfed and not buffed. Ranged physical should be support roles with all of their nonsense they bring for party utility, and utility shouldn't deserve that kind of personal damage they deal now, let alone that kind of damage without requiring a drg in their party.

Their nonsense has been gimping caster roles for far too long, outside of needing a rez in prog.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

MCH/BRD need less power, not more. If anything piercing should be removed, and drg should be compensated for it alone, and leave mch/brd alone. Between refresh, palisade, brd's crit buff troubador foe, and mch's dismantle and hyper charge, all while being part of the speed run meta comp for about 2 years now, they need nerfed and not buffed. Ranged physical should be support roles with all of their nonsense they bring for party utility, and utility shouldn't deserve that kind of personal damage they deal now, let alone that kind of damage without requiring a drg in their party.

Their nonsense has been gimping caster roles for far too long, outside of needing a rez in prog.

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If piercing was removed, there would be no need to nerf BRD or MCH; they are meta because of piercing. Alone, they do not offer enough to take up both ranged spots in a party of the melee comp is NIN/MNK. A BRD's damage is already comparatively less than all other DPS, as they are at the bottom for most percentiles in most fights now; at 99th percentile, BRD comes in under RDM in terms of personal damage rankings. And even now groups sub out MCH for a SMN or BLM if the caster is a really good player. The top speed kill for God Kefka uses DRG/NIN/BRD/SMN.

BRD/MCH are meta because of piercing. The only argument you can make for one of them staying in a comp due to utility would be for BRD, because it offers so much more compared to a MCH--but it also ranks far lower than MCH in personal damage. If piercing were removed, the developers would not be buffing BRD/MCH; they'd have to buff DRG because DRG would die and MNK would become meta for the first time ever.

Your logic of BRD/MCH should be support because of what they offer can also apply to any of the meta DPS jobs; they're meta because of their support capabilities that buff the entire raid. And if you look at personal damage contribution, all four are beneath SMN and BLM.

The removal of piercing is the nerf I'm talking about. Mch/brd shouldn't be compensated for it going away though, only drg should get a flat 5% potency buff.

Certain fights REQUIRE their refresh to win, and their raid contribution dps is still greater than casters. Drg litany and eye still would keep it close to par with monk on rdps. This would open up the raid slots so certain jobs aren't flat out required to work and most of the jobs would have a near equal place, other than nin which would still have its guaranteed spot sadly.

It could open the option of missing some utility for maybe a slight damage gain, instead of the way it is currently where they get both the top damage contribution AND utility. It's entirely unfair and unbalanced.

Play a caster for one raid tier and maybe you'll start to comprehend a slight bit just how badly brd/mch have monopolized the ranged slots. From damage synergy, extra party defensives, and refresh being 10x more useful than mana shift. It's been busted since 3.3, and there hasn't been so much as a glimpse of it being fixed since. The only time it's even considered better to bring any caster is if a raise is needed for the group.