Eureka

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Sounds like Diadem with an elemental leveling system tackled with relics so people have a reason to actually do it. Question is, will it be dead in two weeks like Diadem was when it's basically the same thing without the gathering...

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Don't expect people to finish the relict part within 2 weeks

A few negatives points about this:

- If these monsters work a bit like hunts how long will it take for people to be angry that someone else did not wait long enough and killed it before they could reach it?
- How much work will spawning these monsters take? Will the people that did the hard work on spawning them get anything from that? With hunts you have some people doing all the hard work for S hunts and yet have others snatch them away from them thus getting no credit for it, which is the reason some of them dont even call them out anymore.
- Is there any safety net to prevent people from trolling others by taking monsters to them and killing them with that?
-Is the relic gear set truly just a dyeable version of another existing set? Cant we have at least these things as something completely unique? People probably will be working a lot of time for this and will only receive old gear that is now dyeable.
-Will the RNG for the loot be over the top again?

And one of the biggest question I have: Can I realistically get my relic weapon without having to constantly party with other people? I really like it when they said that you can do that stuff solo too since I dont want to always have a party around..but right now it sounds like you cant do everything alone since you probably need to be in a group to get any kind of reward from a NM..it makes me a bit sad.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Don't expect people to finish the relict part within 2 weeks

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i expect most people will try to get it as soon as posible, and farm hard for it to get it on less of 1 week

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Who said anything about instant gratification?

There are better ways of prolonging content than RNG for a rare drop. Here's an example.
1. A rare drop happens 1% of the time which means if you kill the mob 100 times you are likely to get it at some point but its also possible to kill it 200 times and get nothing. This removes all control over the rewards from the player, thats never a good thing and only serves to create frustration among players. There is ample evidence on these forums alone for this.
2. A drop is gauranteed every time the mob is killed but SE requires 100 of them. The player knows exactly how much work is required and can easily measure their progress to stay motivated. They can see how close they're getting and don't get frustrated because RNG hates them. They know exactly where they are and when they'll be done.

Both options should have the player finish in 100 kills. The first isn't a sure thing, the second is. Both require a time investment and neither has instant gratification (unless RNG blesses you on the first kill). I would keep doing the second type of reward, I'd give up on the first quickly because I have better things to do with my time.

As for how low the drop rate will be...given SE's history with drop rates? Abysmal.

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Getting one every time is the definition of instant gratification. While what you're saying is true, that doing a system like that would make players happy and provide a non-frustrating experience in obtaining their relic weapon/armor, it would make getting what you want painstakingly easy and that is not the goal with this content. It's goal has never been to keep people motivated or happy or even complete the relic in question, there are probably thousands maybe millions of unfinished relics out there.(I never did finish that ARR relic...)You're forgetting that relic's goal is, and has always been, to keep people playing.Relic has never been a necessary part of the game, it's always been optional side content for players to keep themselves entertained with, heck they're usually on par with relevant savage weapons. You always just have the option of just not doing it or dropping it if you don't like it. I disagree that the content should be made as easy as that, I'm for reasonably low drop rates. Someone said it earlier but players are gonna make or break this content and I agree, excited to see if people think the struggle is meaningful.

I'm just expecting it to become a Diadem 3.0.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I'm just expecting it to become a Diadem 3.0.

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Same. Which is likely why they are allowing players the ability to do it solo. Enough people quit/hate it, those that don’t wont be shafted from progressing their Relics.

I just hope entering with a cross world party will be possible and that the armor and weapons will look nice. As someone who didn't mind the first version of Diadem, PotD, hunts and FATEs, I think this content will be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

[...], it would make getting what you want painstakingly easy [...]

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You clearly don't understand how it works.

If something has a 1% drop rate, then on average, people will require 100 runs to get it (solo - groups are a multiplicator). If you get a token every time and need 100, then people will also run it 100 times on average. That means that the total amount of times the content is run is identical either way. Both systems "keep people playing" exactly the same way.

The difference lies only in the distribution - With RNG, you might only do it once, get your item and then stop. Another person however might need to run it 200 times. With tokens, both need to run it 100 times each. In other words: RNG drops is what allows people to "get things painstakingly easy", while others need to work harder to compensate. The overall work is the same on average, you just shift workload from the lucky who can quit early to the unlucky who have to work overtime. You make things easier for some and harder for others, the average difficulty is the same. Do I need to rephrase it again? I think the point should be driven home by now.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You clearly don't understand how it works.

If something has a 1% drop rate, then on average, people will require 100 runs to get it (solo - groups are a multiplicator). If you get a token every time and need 100, then people will also run it 100 times on average. That means that the total amount of times the content is run is identical either way. Both systems "keep people playing" exactly the same way.

The difference lies only in the distribution - With RNG, you might only do it once, get your item and then stop. Another person however might need to run it 200 times. With tokens, both need to run it 100 times each. In other words: RNG drops is what allows people to "get things painstakingly easy", while others need to work harder to compensate. The overall work is the same on average, you just shift workload from the lucky who can quit early to the unlucky who have to work overtime. You make things easier for some and harder for others, the average difficulty is the same. Do I need to rephrase it again? I think the point should be driven home by now.

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This is just trying to keep the system fair and again easy. Stuff that isn't exactly needed in a grind. You don't need to be so hostile about it, this is just a discussion jeez.

Eureka seems to be a homage to FF11, but it is a homage to the worser part....

Its a homage to the openworld somewhat randomly spawning NMs, which always led to grief, and which the developers closed off by making drops rare/ex back in the day.

Why is it not a homage to the - more precisely spawning - NMs of Sky, Sea or ZNMs etc.

I do not like NMs with vague 'spawns when certain conditions are met'. I would prefer to farm tiers of NMs each for pop items to go up to the next tier. There is reliability there and players can plan what jobs they want to bring accordingly. Also lower tiers can be solo'd or lowmanned. So theres always something to do.

Having played FF11 for years, while openworld NMs led to a lot of discussion ingame and on forums, in practice most players camped things for a while then got fed up. It was a case of "been there done that, I'l just buy the item off the AH". Players got really fed up of openworld NMs because of drop rates and because of competition with gilsellers/bots. Contrast that to Dynamis or Sky. Those were - reliable -. Yes, it became boring after a while, but you knew what you would accomplish each time.


Also, the elemental weakness thing isnt much of a homage to FF11. Regardless of mobs, everyone just threw out Distortion & Freeze or Light & Thunder IV. Barspells were really never much of a thing, and a lot of WHMs never bothered casting them >.>

Element Weakness just seems to add a layer of nothingness. It doesn't add to the gameplay beneficially. It sort of reminds me of "stances", which are "set and forget".

I would have preferred a more interactive version of element weakness in the form of the "Element Field" from Chrono Cross, tweaked somewhat so players and mob battle to fill the element field to allow use of all their abilities.