THM lore makes no sense...

Just call Thaumaturge/Black Mage, Wizard and the problem is solved. Specifically Red Wizard.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

As far as evoker goes, personlly I prefere elementalist.

For Tamer, I prefere Enchanter.

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Actually, the reason why I said that aid they changed CNJ's names it would be easier is the exact reason you stated above. CNJ at the this point is really no longer and Elementist, instead the power to control all six elements would go to Evoker. I also it because, Conjure and Evoke's meaning are so close that it would be confusing to add the two.

Enchanter. . . I can dig it. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Yeah, a bit of corrections to your claims:



--only partially true, at least based on the lore that is available.

The actual notes suggest that the Ossuary focuses on the Death side, and the other church known as the Millvaneth Sacrarium, focuses on the Life side. We. Have. No. Proof. that THM guild = Millvaneth, because the lore keeps that church exclusive and secretive.

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Just because THM =\= Milvaneth, that doesn't mean that it is untrue that THMs as a WHOLE worship Life and Death.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

With that knowledge, your other challenge was that Conjurers do not? ...have nukes to their disposal?

Aero and Stone are powerful nukes, when used properly.

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I didn't say that CNJ didn't have nukes, I said that there magic was 'less violent'. I don't mean by this that their spells are useless, what I was saying was the nature of the two spells (Stones and Gusts of Wind) were a lot less violent then as, a fireball or a lightning bolt.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The only real challenge that they have made to carved-in-stone canon (however literal that may be) with these changes, is the concept that elements are the domain of Conjurers. While they still get nukes, the rebalance shifted part of those to other classes. But truth be told the canon did not go as far to say they control "all" of the elements, so I think it is forgivable as a retcon.

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This is true, when I heard of the changes to the elements, I just took it as CNJ controlling two of the elements but, worship them all.
But, the lore will change eventually I guess. The problem we are having (Me and Coglin) is that the names themselves to do fit the classes and their abilities. It's like calling saying something is a PGL yet they have ARC abilities.

This might be just me misremembering what friends told me, given I did not play at that time but... Wasn't there a thing related to some elements being 'Umbra' type elements and other elements being 'Astral' type elements? (actually just a few minutes ago I was fighting an enemy that got me with the 'Scourge' status which made me weak against 'Umbra' elements)

From what I get, Thaumaturges had always been tied to the Umbra elements and Conjurers to the Astral elements. Which I believe is what the elements they use right now still are. Though yes, I admit that the Thaumaturge as it is is still pretty lacking in 'death' as an element, something that the story seems to hint it's a pretty strong point for them. (at least the Main Quest in Ul'Dah drives that on you pretty fast)

Also I do believe that Conjurers got that name because they are 'elemental summoners', as in, they can call forth and commune with the elementals.

Mind, all that is speculation of a pretty uninformed mind

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Originally Posted by Skies

This might be just me misremembering what friends told me, given I did not play at that time but... Wasn't there a thing related to some elements being 'Umbra' type elements and other elements being 'Astral' type elements? (actually just a few minutes ago I was fighting an enemy that got me with the 'Scourge' status which made me weak against 'Umbra' elements)

From what I get, Thaumaturges had always been tied to the Umbra elements and Conjurers to the Astral elements. Which I believe is what the elements they use right now still are. Though yes, I admit that the Thaumaturge as it is is still pretty lacking in 'death' as an element, something that the story seems to hint it's a pretty strong point for them. (at least the Main Quest in Ul'Dah drives that on you pretty fast)

Also I do believe that Conjurers got that name because they are 'elemental summoners', as in, they can call forth and commune with the elementals.

Mind, all that is speculation of a pretty uninformed mind

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Not quite. Arzannaeth is tied to the Umbral and Milvaneth is tied to the Astral. Thaumaturgy is tied to both and the two sects of its religion focus on the two aspects. Life and Death. Prosperity and Sacrifice. etc. etc.

Astral = Fire, Wind, Thunder - elements you cannot hold in your hands
Umbral = Ice, Earth, Water - elements you can hold in your hands

But since the ability overhauls they have pushed THM into the blackmage tradition of fire/ice/thunder - go figure.


On the conjurer side of things, yes, they conjure the spirits etc. But their contrast to thaumaturges of elemental magic vs. divine magic has been lost and, to a certain degree, sequested by thaumaturgy leaving enourmous gaps in the lore on both sides. Especially so in Thaumaturgy as the astral/umbral contrast of their sects has been lost.

This may be repaired if white mage become based in Milvaneth to create a destruction/restoration contrast, but this remains to be seen. Likewise, if black mage becomes based in the Twelveswood, it may be able to restore its elemental circle of relevance.

Y

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Not quite. Arzannaeth is tied to the Umbral and Milvaneth is tied to the Astral. Thaumaturgy is tied to both and the two sects of its religion focus on the two aspects. Life and Death. Prosperity and Sacrifice. etc. etc.

Astral = Fire, Wind, Thunder - elements you cannot hold in your hands
Umbral = Ice, Earth, Water - elements you can hold in your hands

But since the ability overhauls they have pushed THM into the blackmage tradition of fire/ice/thunder - go figure.


On the conjurer side of things, yes, they conjure the spirits etc. But their contrast to thaumaturges of elemental magic vs. divine magic has been lost and, to a certain degree, sequested by thaumaturgy leaving enourmous gaps in the lore on both sides. Especially so in Thaumaturgy as the astral/umbral contrast of their sects has been lost.

This may be repaired if white mage become based in Milvaneth to create a destruction/restoration contrast, but this remains to be seen. Likewise, if black mage becomes based in the Twelveswood, it may be able to restore its elemental circle of relevance.

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My theory is that, White Mages were Conjurer's that dedicated themselves to healing magic and life. Therefore, they also took up the life aspect of Nald'Thal.
As for BLM. . . Probably THMs who traveled to the twelveswood to learn how to evoke the powers of their elementals in a violent manner.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Y

My theory is that, White Mages were Conjurer's that dedicated themselves to healing magic and life. Therefore, they also took up the life aspect of Nald'Thal.
As for BLM. . . Probably THMs who traveled to the twelveswood to learn how to evoke the powers of their elementals in a violent manner.

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Not a bad theory either. :)

Actually there is lore to support that.

Outside of the CNJ guild is an npc who reminisces (angrily, as it were) to rumors of a group of mages who enjoyed the practice of "angering" the spirits, rather than enjoying harmony with them. This could be the BLM contrast we were looking for, the story just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.


Edit: the npc's at the cnj guild also speak of their worship of the goddess of plenty, which is the aspect of Earth, and the giant rainbow stone is said to be the egg of a great sky dragon. Those two details could be strong supporting factors of Aero and Earth in the guild.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Edit: the npc's at the cnj guild also speak of their worship of the goddess of plenty, which is the aspect of Earth, and the giant rainbow stone is said to be the egg of a great sky dragon. Those two details could be strong supporting factors of Aero and Earth in the guild.

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Nophica, the Matron, patron deity of Gridania. She is indeed aligned with Earth. And the Sky Serpent Egg can be seen from Nophica's Altar on the way to Stillglade Fane.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

Just call Thaumaturge/Black Mage, Wizard and the problem is solved. Specifically Red Wizard.

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I'm going to rename the game Sack Tap 2012.