DRK's Niche as a tank?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

how does DRK have an easier rotation than PLD? DRK rotation so far seems a lot tougher, given my DRK is only level 42 now and that may change at level 70.

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It’s the opposite, PLD rotation gets a bit more complicated at lvl 70 (actually before, as soos as you get Holy and requiescat) while DRK is pretty much unchanged.
DRK is spamming the same 1-2-3 combos all day while PLD have to manage 2 combo paths, physical and magical bursts and more oGCD.
However, it is harder to optimise DRK DPS because there’s no complexity in the rotation itself so you optimize by managing your MP/blood to maximize your potency during party buffs (i.e. trick attack, chain strat, balance, etc)

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Also how does DRK have an easier rotation than PLD? DRK rotation so far seems a lot tougher, given my DRK is only level 42 now and that may change at level 70.

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DRK had its second dps combo finisher taken away, it's literally 1-2-3/1-2-DA-3/1-DA-2-DA-3 that's not very complicated at all. I really wish they'd bring back scourge as a second dps combo finisher to help break up the monotony.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

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I agree, for myself I just think that bring to the DRK Scourge back or something that give him a little more dps - and why not more variation in his rotation - should be perfect.
I've to say the lost of the DoT and Delirium makes the DRK a little boring.

Not only do decisions made in early prog not reflect what's optimal, they also don't necessarily reflect what's optimal for prog. This is especially true when the devs release major balance changes at the same time as the raid tier. Even if you're equally talented in every tank, gear does not automagically become available the instant you decide to swap. Gear takes time to make and you have to prioritise. Swapping jobs and picking up new gear costs lockouts.

Based on what we know now about the 4.05 patch changes (which pretty much trivialised resource management on WAR), WAR would have been a better choice as a prog tank. Defensive cooldowns have never been a limiting factor on WAR. How do you think people did prog on WAR in earlier content? And without Rampart, no less? If, for some reason, you need to play super defensively, WAR has the ability to be more defensive than any other tank by pairing up the largest set of free cooldowns in the game with on-demand IB (which is actually less of a dps loss this expansion than it ever was in HW). And if a dps check shows up later in the fight, you just phase it out.

The main reason why Scourge was removed was because of changes to DRK's MP balance. In 3.x, it was very easy to float your MP, because there was a natural equilibrium between Syphon Strike and the MP drain from Darkside. In 4.x, you have to constantly spend MP or risk capping your MP and losing dps. While it's harder to bottom out, it's much, much easier to cap. The latter doesn't flag to the player that they're wasting dps the way that losing Darkside used to. So players mistakenly feel that it's easier while simultainously getting punished even harder for bad play than they would have in 3.x.

You need to be able to make a decision whether to burn MP on DA on a GCD by GCD basis. That's why they've moved away from actions that force you into a more structured rotation, like Scourge. You don't have time for it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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I don't really know why they've removed Scourge. I believe they did this because for most of the job (not only tank) having a DoT is kinda useless. As you said, that takes a GCD that can be spend somewhere else.
But in fact, and I realise only now, that was fun sometime to put a DoT, just to change the 1-2-3 rotation with sometime a CDs or an OGCD. And that was cool to put it during Berserk, at the end when you only have 2sec to put it. Or when you where at 1899 pm instead of the 1900 you need to use DA. Or just because the boss will bump you during the next 2 sec and during 10 sec.

But I don't understand why PLD still has two DoT. The OGCD, ok, np it's a very good ability. But the last? And the worst: I'm levelling my PLD now, and I feel really cool to have 3 differents combo, it's less braindead.
So maybe don't put Scourge again - even if all DRK miss the Scourge's animation - put something else, just to not sleeping after 3 minutes of fight.

I know it's not the feeling of everyone, but it's the feeling for some DRK that came from HW, and maybe we can have a compromise between those who like the old DRK and those who like the "new".

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

So maybe don't put Scourge again - even if all DRK miss the Scourge's animation - put something else, just to not sleeping after 3 minutes of fight.

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Scourge with 3.xx Delirium animation and it combos off of Syphon Strike and has DA effect of reducing targets damage Dealt by 10% while still being a DoT baseline?

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Scourge with 3.xx Delirium animation and it combos off of Syphon Strike and has DA effect of reducing targets damage Dealt by 10% while still being a DoT baseline?

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Lowering dmg dealt by a single target is closer to what WAR needs, not DRK.
DRK needs something to help lower dmg taken by multiple sources. (And maybe something to increase the duration of TBN by an extra 5 seconds, that isnt DA)

(for the sake of balance, id keep it closer to 5% mitigation, rather than 10%, for both tanks, as they have reprisal now)

EDIT: actually, add DA to TBN, and it becomes an AoE. That would be pretty nice. Its even a DPS loss, so it should only be done when its an absolute necessity for the groups survival.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR has the ability to be more defensive than any other tank by pairing up the largest set of free cooldowns in the game with on-demand IB

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I think DRKS need some love, but I think the xtra mitigation from IB argument is a bit overlooked. Wars tank stance, Defiance increases max HP by 25% and healing received by 20%. I'm hard pressed to say this is as good as a straight 20% mitigation, and maybe only when warrior is topped off. IB does allow the warrior that 20% mitigation the other tanks get in tank stance.

So, 20% Healing increase, 20% IB + random cooldown > 20% Mitigation Tank Stance + Random Cooldown.

But I don't think this is where the problem lays (and the difference trivial) as the benefit of IB means being well placed/timed.

The overall problem, imho, is I don't think they know what they want darks to be yet.

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Originally Posted by zarndelius

Defiance increases max HP by 25% and healing received by 20%. I'm hard pressed to say this is as good as a straight 20% mitigation, and maybe only when warrior is topped off. IB does allow the warrior that 20% mitigation the other tanks get in tank stance.

So, 20% Healing increase, 20% IB + random cooldown > 20% Mitigation Tank Stance + Random Cooldown.

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Grit+TBN is nearly equivalent of defiance+InnerBeast, except defiance is a convalescence mixed in as well, at the cost of gauge for fell cleaves.

My raid groups pretty much rely on Holmgang/living dead, as a means to "survive" tank busters.
if you never use CDs, stay in DPS stances, and can only use holmgang (and enough times), you'll get through every encounter just fine.

Surviving the tank buster is all that matters, healing is more than potent enough to keep you up.
Having any more mitigation than that, is just to help learn a fight, and give the healers more room to DPS.
So defiance, thrill of battle, and the Blackest Night, are all good means to survive tank busters.
(I know that you already feel its a trivial difference, but just wanted to clarify this tidbit.)

DRKs WERE in the middle, until this update, which is hard to ballance out. if you DA+TBN, and make it then AoE, would be a step, but the DPS loss is bad.
Then there is the long CDs on mitigation which is an issue as well, so they need soem reductions. if living dead was as short as holmgang, it would be seen as an "almost" equal to holmgang, though worse than holmgang by a tiny amount.
(or up the potency of BS, as its still a DPS loss to use TBN)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

if living dead was as short as holmgang, it would be seen as an "almost" equal to holmgang, though worse than holmgang by a tiny amount.

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What? So the ability to have a 10 second buffer before the actual invulernability is not as good as holmgang? Or how about 4 seconds longer invulerability than holmgang? How about the ability to move while invulernable?

Dude, for what Living Dead affords a player, it's balanced. Lower the cooldown to holmgang's 3 minutes, and it's DEFINITELY overshadowing holmgang. Where do you get the idea that it'd be worse?